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Florida Native
post Oct 25 2012, 10:25 AM
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Without giving away any exact locations, the park was along I-75 in mid Ga where it can get very, very hot in the summer. We were recently in the area and I wished I knew your exact location so we could have stopped. We stayed in the general area on the way up and on the way down about a month apart. I have heard other campground owners state here that during the summer, they maxed out at about $3.00 per day on electrical costs. Good Luck in your new venture.


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kcmoedoe
post Oct 25 2012, 03:34 PM
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QUOTE(RanMan @ Oct 25 2012, 09:53 AM) *

Howdy, Out Fishing.

Your question is not easy to answer without knowing the region in which you are located but I will share some average power consumption figures that I had in August and September 2012. My park is in the south where the temps those months was usually in the mid to upper 90's in the daytime. This was a little cooler than normal, but the humidity is rather high. Some of my guests who have 30 amp service averaged around 750 kilowatt hours each of those months. Those were at the high end of the scale. Some used less than 500 Kwh per month on average.

Just curious, Did I understand correctly that you only have 30 Amp sites?

That 30 AMP question occured to me as well. If so, why would you build a new park that is unacceptable to a large number of RVers? I specifically seek out 50 amps, unless I really screw up and nothing else is available. If you don't meter your electricity, you can expect higher bills than average with seasonal guests. They will not be adverse to leaving the AC on cool even when they are gone for the week.
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Out Fishing
post Oct 25 2012, 04:44 PM
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Good Questions and thanks!

We will be compatible with 50 AMP wire and all that. but right now with only one phase power available we may not be able to provide 50 AMP power to a large number of sites. either way the proposed park is in Alberta ( i think i can state the province??) and really even in dead summer it does not get hot enough for most people to use air conditioning from what i hear.( we average 22 degrees per day in july and august. or 72-71 Farinhit) and honestly from what marketing we have done so far and the people on the seasonal waiting list there was little demand for 50 AMP power.

now we are not up and running yet these are just preliminary so i could be wrong. thats why we decided for the minimal extra infrastructure cost to make all sites compatible with 50AMP. just have 30 AMP breakers.

on that note im curious what is the power consumption difference between a unit that has 50amp and 30 amp? is it significant?

Thanks for all the Help
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pianotuna
post Oct 25 2012, 06:29 PM
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Hi Outfishing,

A 30 amp site offers up to 3600 watts if it is maxed out.

A 50 amp site offers up to 12000 watts if it is maxed out.

Potentially the 50 amp may consume about four times as much energy. Even with the low rates in Alberta that still costs a lot more.

At the same time, the trend is towards 50 amp service in RV's, so I believe planning for it and having 50 amp breakers would be a forward thinking thing to do.

50 amp is not two phase. It is two legs--just as an electric stove is.


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Denali
post Oct 25 2012, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE(pianotuna @ Oct 25 2012, 05:29 PM) *
50 amp is not two phase. It is two legs--just as an electric stove is.
Actually, 50 amp power for RVs (and electric stoves) is two-phase. The two legs are 180 degrees out of phase. That's why the neutral conductor isn't twice as big as the two hot legs--the return current will never exceed the draw of one of the hot legs.

You can verify that the legs are out of phase by measuring the voltage across the two hot legs. It should be 240 VAC.

Wandering a bit off-topic, that's also why those of us who use a Cheater Box with two 30 amp outlets need to watch our total current draw. If those two outlets happen to be in phase, we could theoretically draw 60 amps down the neutral line. On a cold morning, we sometimes draw up to 75 amps when connected to 50 amp power.

Oh, and thanks for calling it "amp" rather than "AMP". As you know, "amp" is simply short for "ampere", not an acronym for something else, like "IBM".


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pianotuna
post Oct 25 2012, 07:47 PM
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Hi Denali,

I meant as opposed to three phase power lines--which are a different kettle of fish altogether. But you are right.


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Don
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docj
post Oct 25 2012, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE(Denali @ Oct 25 2012, 09:28 PM) *

Actually, 50 amp power for RVs (and electric stoves) is two-phase. The two legs are 180 degrees out of phase. That's why the neutral conductor isn't twice as big as the two hot legs--the return current will never exceed the draw of one of the hot legs.



Most residential homes are fed with single-phase power (sometimes called split-phase.) The power company runs three wires into the home which comprises of two hot wires and a neutral wire. The neutral is actually a center-tapped feed off the transformer. Voltage measured across both hot wires is 240 VAC. Voltage measured from any hot to neutral is 120 VAC (split-phase). So, a regular 120 VAC circuit is fed with one hot and the neutral (split-phase). A dryer or oven is fed with both hots which provides 240 VAC (single or full-phase).

Some people mistakenly believe that a 240 VAC circuit is "two-phase," but they are wrong; it's actually the full phase of a single-phase circuit whereas the 120 VAC feeds are half-phase (split-phase).


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Texasrvers
post Oct 25 2012, 09:30 PM
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I hope someone is understanding all this. blink.gif biggrin.gif
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NYDutch
post Oct 25 2012, 10:12 PM
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Yep, understanding it and agreeing fully with Joel... biggrin.gif


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Denali
post Oct 26 2012, 09:48 AM
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Thanks for the correction and lucid explanation, Joel.


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willranless
post Oct 26 2012, 10:36 AM
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QUOTE(Out Fishing @ Oct 25 2012, 05:44 PM) *

We will be compatible with 50 AMP wire and all that. but right now with only one phase power available we may not be able to provide 50 AMP power to a large number of sites.

thats why we decided for the minimal extra infrastructure cost to make all sites compatible with 50AMP. just have 30 AMP breakers.



Now that I know where you are, I am starting to understand a little better, but I still have some questions and concerns.
When you say 50 amp wire, what size do you mean, and how many conductors are in the circuit? It should be at least 6 gauge copper with 4 wires (3 conductors plus a ground wire). Depending on the distance you are running from the main panel, the wire may need to be larger. A 50 amp RV circuit is 240 VAC. Two of the conductors are each 120 volts to provide the 240 volts while the other serves as a neutral. If you run that to each pedestal, you can then use one of the "hot" conductors and the neutral for a 30 amp service. A 30 amp service is 120 VAC.

1. If you are running the proper size wire for 50 amp, it would seem wise to go ahead and use a 50 amp breaker and have a 50 amp receptacle at each site so that a rig with a 50 amp cord can plug in directly without using an adapter. The cost to do this in the construction phase would be much less than trying to go back and retrofit the pedestals later. I understand that you may not have as much need for 50 amp in the milder climate, but there are other things in an RV besides air conditioning that consume as much or more power, though they may only be on for short times. For example, a hair dryer and a microwave can draw 27 amps on a 30 amp 120 VAC circuit if they are on at the same time. If you factor in other electrical loads, the circuit is overloaded for a short period of time which can cause the breaker to trip.

2. Even though the sites are 50 amp, it does not mean that the Main Service panel has to be rated for 50 amps times the number of sites you are serving from that panel. For example, at my park, I have twenty 50 amp sites that are served by one 400 amp Main breaker. Now if you multiply 20 X 50 you get 1000 amps. I know, it sounds like it won't work, but it does, because every site is not always using the maximum amount of current. The highest amp draw I have ever measured on that 400 amp breaker was 380 amps on a 105 degree day when every site was occupied and running their A/C. Some of those were only 30 amp RVs and this was bordering on overheating the breaker. I was surprised it did not trip. In 7 years I have never had a 400 amp breaker trip or burn out. I did not build this park, but it was subject to inspections by the city for compliance with the electrical codes at the time. You should check with your local code enforcement agency to see what would be required in your area.

3. Being on single phase power should not affect your ability to provide 50 amp service. I'm on single phase as well.

I'm not sure how far along you are in purchasing your electrical equipment yet, but this would be my advice:
Wire your pedestals for 50 amp and include both a 50 and 30 amp receptacle as well as a 50 and 30 amp breaker in each pedestal. This way you are prepared to accommodate whatever type of service your guests may need. It may cost a little more, but it will be a lot cheaper than trying to go back later and do it. I think you will have less problems in the long run and more satisfied guests.
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Out Fishing
post Oct 30 2012, 01:30 AM
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Thanks for the Feedback!

Mainly its just that 3 Phase is cheaper for higher loads. expessaly when the local farm co=op service in the area is a 200amp service and the power company may not be able to give the 1500-3000amp service we may need for a full 50amp service. (using RanMans numbers at less rate)

Thanks for the advice i am inclined now to offer 50 amp if we can in the area. we dont have our electrical engineered drawings anyway yet. but its good to hear from people in the field already so we can avoid mistakes such as 30 amp when the trend is toward 50amp rvs.

(anything in the USA is usably ahead of us by a little bit but the trends hit us eventually)
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Gypsy2
post Nov 16 2012, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE(Don-in-GA @ Jan 2 2012, 12:41 AM) *

I agree we need a place to share ideas, successes and failures. I hope we have lots of input here after the holidays.

I am a RV Park owner/operator in GA. I do not have a shower house, restrooms or laundry. To be honest I only loose a couple of customers a year so I have been reluctant to make the investment. However I realize to be a legitimate park, I need these amenities. I would like to hear other park owners designs and suggestions. I have not had much success in building plans on the net. When my wife and I travel in our Class A, I take pictures to assist in some ideas.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

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outdoorfanatic
post Nov 27 2012, 08:09 PM
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I apologize for bringing the discussion off subject. I have a question that I couldnt find an answer to anywhere else and think that the owners of campgrounds can help me out. I was wondering what all is involved in purchasing a old campground ( expectations/requirements ) if I do not plan to operate as a campground? In short, to buy a campground and just live there as if it were a small house with lots of property. There is a small campground by me with no rv spots or cabins, and has only one small building which I think could be retrofitted to a nice little home. Is this something possible or am I just crazy? Also, would the campground still sell for the asking price now or will it for some reason increase/decrease due to me not wanting to operate as a campground? Im sorry if this isnt the right forum to post. Thank you very much for your responses.
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joez
post Nov 27 2012, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE(outdoorfanatic @ Nov 27 2012, 09:09 PM) *

I apologize for bringing the discussion off subject. I have a question that I couldnt find an answer to anywhere else and think that the owners of campgrounds can help me out. I was wondering what all is involved in purchasing a old campground ( expectations/requirements ) if I do not plan to operate as a campground? In short, to buy a campground and just live there as if it were a small house with lots of property. There is a small campground by me with no rv spots or cabins, and has only one small building which I think could be retrofitted to a nice little home. Is this something possible or am I just crazy? Also, would the campground still sell for the asking price now or will it for some reason increase/decrease due to me not wanting to operate as a campground? Im sorry if this isnt the right forum to post. Thank you very much for your responses.


Sellers will always try to sell property for the highest (most expensive) use. If the property is more valuable as a campground, why would a seller consider selling it as a residence, unless it is just a turkey and not worth anything as a commercial establishment? If the campground has transferable permits to operate, as well as, environmental and other permits, those would have considerable value, normally. In short, I doubt if your intended use will cause an owner to consider selling at a reduced value. But, hey, stranger things have happened - make an offer. Good luck.
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