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Full-Timer RV'er
post Oct 8 2012, 12:03 PM
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I am kind of curious. One of my reviews was not posted / allowed because we had not actually stayed at the park. The reason we had not stayed at the park was because of our pets and the owners' views on them.

We have a pair of large (service animal) dogs, Labrador cross. We made reservations at this park. When we arrived the owner met us at our motorhome and asked to see the dogs prior to allowing us in the park. Now this is a "membership" park, and according to their advertising they are a pet friendly park, no breed restrictions.

Long story short she determined one of our dogs was an aggressive breed animal, demanded to see our service animal paperwork (which is against ADA), and then rudely told us it would be $5 per day per dog IF we stayed as that "people with service animals are lazy, and do not clean up after their dogs".

We left. We never made it past the front gate because we knew this was gonna be a hellish stay if we choose to bend to her will.

Now when I submitted this review, it was rejected because we hadn't actually stayed at this park; although there are other reviews of this parks from people who had experienced similar problems. As a pet owner I WANT to know IF I am going to run into a problem BEFORE I arrive or make reservations. Am I the only one? ? ? Just a little curious...
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kcmoedoe
post Oct 8 2012, 03:57 PM
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You cannot be denied access anywhere except areas where sterile conditions are required, and the public is not generally allowed (such as a restaurant kitchen, an operating room or other special areas of a hospital etc.) because of a true "service animal" . A service animal is defined as being necessary to assist an individual for a specific condition. A "therapy dog is not a service animal and therapy dogs do not have any ADA protections. A business may ask what the animal is trained to do and may ask if the animal is required to assist the individual. If you lie, you are breaking federal law, though there is actually no mechanism in place to actually verify any claim. There is an effort to get the ADA modified to require actual certification and documentation since there are many individuals who claim ADA exemptions as a ruse to get their pets into places they would otherwise be prohibited from entering. The park may deny you access if they deny others for reasons not related to the service animal, such as an age restriction on your rig, or in the case of a membership park, if you are not a member. As an aside, there is no legal protection from them making your stay a living hell if they wanted to. They could watch your every move and if you didn't clean up after your dog, or the dog exhibited even a hint of agressive behaviour they could kick you out.
While your situation is serious, I can understand the reluctance of the website to not allow reviews where people do not visit. It would be unfair to people using the ratings if they became over-run with reviews that only quote why they didn't stay there. What good would a string of low ratings do anyone if all they said what "we didn't stay here because the other park in the area was cheaper, had more channels on the cable TV, had a better looking sign, etc. Your review is truly in a gray area, and I could see the website moderators going either way on it.
If it happened the way you described, you really should contact an advocate for the disabled in the area of the park and have them investigated or perhaps even contact an attorney for the disabled and sue them, they were in clear violation of the law.
Finally, you will be better served if you never refer to your service dogs as pets. It just makes it sound like you are trying to use the law to take fluffy with you, not because the dog is required due to a handicap.
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Full-Timer RV'er
post Oct 8 2012, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE(kcmoedoe @ Oct 8 2012, 04:57 PM) *

You cannot be denied access anywhere except areas where sterile conditions are required, and the public is not generally allowed (such as a restaurant kitchen, an operating room or other special areas of a hospital etc.) because of a true "service animal" . A service animal is defined as being necessary to assist an individual for a specific condition. A "therapy dog is not a service animal and therapy dogs do not have any ADA protections. A business may ask what the animal is trained to do and may ask if the animal is required to assist the individual. If you lie, you are breaking federal law, though there is actually no mechanism in place to actually verify any claim. There is an effort to get the ADA modified to require actual certification and documentation since there are many individuals who claim ADA exemptions as a ruse to get their pets into places they would otherwise be prohibited from entering. The park may deny you access if they deny others for reasons not related to the service animal, such as an age restriction on your rig, or in the case of a membership park, if you are not a member. As an aside, there is no legal protection from them making your stay a living hell if they wanted to. They could watch your every move and if you didn't clean up after your dog, or the dog exhibited even a hint of agressive behaviour they could kick you out.
While your situation is serious, I can understand the reluctance of the website to not allow reviews where people do not visit. It would be unfair to people using the ratings if they became over-run with reviews that only quote why they didn't stay there. What good would a string of low ratings do anyone if all they said what "we didn't stay here because the other park in the area was cheaper, had more channels on the cable TV, had a better looking sign, etc. Your review is truly in a gray area, and I could see the website moderators going either way on it.
If it happened the way you described, you really should contact an advocate for the disabled in the area of the park and have them investigated or perhaps even contact an attorney for the disabled and sue them, they were in clear violation of the law.
Finally, you will be better served if you never refer to your service dogs as pets. It just makes it sound like you are trying to use the law to take fluffy with you, not because the dog is required due to a handicap.


Where shall I begin -

"therapy dogs do not have any ADA protections." - Actually they do and there have been a number of lawsuits filed in Federal Court with regards to this issue. One major one under recent consideration is that of a Student in a major College who attempted suicide after being denied her prescribed, registered SERVICE animal.

" require actual certification and documentation - An individual with a service animal has both a DOCTORS prescription, training documentation, etc... It does NOT say documentation is NOT required, it states They cannot REQUIRE you to provide proof said documentation. Because we have ran into this issue, we keep our proof with us at all times because it stops the harassment.

" A business may ask what the animal is trained to do and may ask if the animal is required to assist the individual. " - Again sadly you are mistaken, they can not ask you for this information. If they are a consumer based business they can not ask you for any paperwork, documentation, etc. Again there are a number of lawsuits documenting this.


"the dog exhibited even a hint of agressive behaviour they could kick you out. " - i truly wish I could document how many time I have been "attacked" by a "little" dog and people just shrugged it off. Regardless of an animals size, if it shows aggressive behavior (note correct spelling) it needs to be removed. Not just the people would would rather have a real dog.

" perhaps even contact an attorney for the disabled and sue them, " - This is EXACTLY what is wrong with today's society. Everyone is SUE happy. If you don't give me what I want, I'll just sue you. Whatever... I would rather post a bad review and watch their business go under via word of mouth, it does A LOT more damage than suing them. They would just settle out of court, slap a gag order on me, and no one would be any wiser.

" you will be better served if you never refer to your service dogs as pets." - They ARE our pets, They are our daily reminders of why, what, etc. They give us a reason if not a shoulder to get up in the morning. To place them on the level of nothing more than an "employee" with no feelings is cold hearted and I refuse to do that to them. They are our 4 legged children.

This post was not about side stepping laws, or having a review posted... It was to ask how other RV'ers felt about having their reservations, stay, etc turn into a nightmare because of their "pets"........



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kcmoedoe
post Oct 8 2012, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE(Full-Timer RV'er @ Oct 8 2012, 04:16 PM) *

Where shall I begin -

"therapy dogs do not have any ADA protections." - Actually they do and there have been a number of lawsuits filed in Federal Court with regards to this issue. One major one under recent consideration is that of a Student in a major College who attempted suicide after being denied her prescribed, registered SERVICE animal.

" require actual certification and documentation - An individual with a service animal has both a DOCTORS prescription, training documentation, etc... It does NOT say documentation is NOT required, it states They cannot REQUIRE you to provide proof said documentation. Because we have ran into this issue, we keep our proof with us at all times because it stops the harassment.

" A business may ask what the animal is trained to do and may ask if the animal is required to assist the individual. " - Again sadly you are mistaken, they can not ask you for this information. If they are a consumer based business they can not ask you for any paperwork, documentation, etc. Again there are a number of lawsuits documenting this.
"the dog exhibited even a hint of agressive behaviour they could kick you out. " - i truly wish I could document how many time I have been "attacked" by a "little" dog and people just shrugged it off. Regardless of an animals size, if it shows aggressive behavior (note correct spelling) it needs to be removed. Not just the people would would rather have a real dog.

" perhaps even contact an attorney for the disabled and sue them, " - This is EXACTLY what is wrong with today's society. Everyone is SUE happy. If you don't give me what I want, I'll just sue you. Whatever... I would rather post a bad review and watch their business go under via word of mouth, it does A LOT more damage than suing them. They would just settle out of court, slap a gag order on me, and no one would be any wiser.

" you will be better served if you never refer to your service dogs as pets." - They ARE our pets, They are our daily reminders of why, what, etc. They give us a reason if not a shoulder to get up in the morning. To place them on the level of nothing more than an "employee" with no feelings is cold hearted and I refuse to do that to them. They are our 4 legged children.

This post was not about side stepping laws, or having a review posted... It was to ask how other RV'ers felt about having their reservations, stay, etc turn into a nightmare because of their "pets"........

You need to revisit the ADA compliance laws, The law specifically states that
only service dogs (or minature horses) are covered by the current ADA regulations. A business CAN ask what the service animal is trained to do, and CAN ask if the service animal is required by the owner. A simple internet search will confirm those statements.
Since you obviously don't know the ADA laws, and you were very rude in pointing out a minor spelling error, I am now convinced the problem you had with the RV park was at least in part instigated and escalated by you. As for hiring a lawyer or consulting a disability advocate, it would benefit all disabled persons if a business that acted in such wanton disregard to the law was taken to task. Lawsuits are not always about greed. Finally, even the US department of Justice, on their ADA FAQ specifically states "A service animal is not a pet."
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Full-Timer RV'er
post Oct 8 2012, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE(kcmoedoe @ Oct 8 2012, 06:11 PM) *

You need to brush up on your ADA compliance. For example "therapy dogs" are not protected, only service dogs (or minature horses) are covered by the current ADA regulations. A business CAN ask what the service animal is trained to do, and CAN ask if the service animal is required by the owner. A simple internet search will confirm those statements.
Since you obviously don't know the ADA laws, and you were very rude in pointing out a minor spelling error, I am now convinced the problem you had with the RV park was at least in part instigated and escalated by you. As for hiring a lawyer or consulting a disability advocate, it would benefit all disabled persons if a business that acted in such wanton disregard to the law was taken to task. Lawsuits are not always about greed.


I guess then the ADA information we were given by the Veteran's Administration and ALL of my years of law research was incorrect. I am just another loser attempting to manipulate the system to get what I want, and this situation NEVER happened because I refuse to sue.

BTW if you had bothered to right click on the words with red under lining, I would not have had to point out your spelling errors. Maybe in your rush to point out how rude and wrong I am, you forgot to show little of your restraint.

And IF this park didn't already have one review here, and numerous others posted on other various websites with regards to this problem, I may even agree with you. As I can be a little rough around the edges and very much an in your face type person. However, I was the one who walked away from this situation, my hubby (AN AMERICAN VETERAN) was not inclined to do so. Thus maybe you are just a lot bit bent because as a NEWBIE I do know a thing or 2 and am not some old ignorant coot who has nothing better to do than rag on people all day.....
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kcmoedoe
post Oct 8 2012, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE(Full-Timer RV'er @ Oct 8 2012, 05:26 PM) *

I guess then the ADA information we were given by the Veteran's Administration and ALL of my years of law research was incorrect. I am just another loser attempting to manipulate the system to get what I want, and this situation NEVER happened because I refuse to sue.

BTW if you had bothered to right click on the words with red under lining, I would not have had to point out your spelling errors. Maybe in your rush to point out how rude and wrong I am, you forgot to show little of your restraint.

And IF this park didn't already have one review here, and numerous others posted on other various websites with regards to this problem, I may even agree with you. As I can be a little rough around the edges and very much an in your face type person. However, I was the one who walked away from this situation, my hubby (AN AMERICAN VETERAN) was not inclined to do so. Thus maybe you are just a lot bit bent because as a NEWBIE I do know a thing or 2 and am not some old ignorant coot who has nothing better to do than rag on people all day.....

If what you posted was what you were told by the Veteran's Administration and what you found from your years of law research, it was incorrect. Here is the link the the US department of Justice's ADA information on Service Animals: www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
If you take the time to look at the information, you will notice my post was factually correct, spelling be darned. BTW, since you posted around noon, twice in the 2pm hour, once in the 3pm hour, then in the 4pm hour and finally in the 5pm hour, it kind of does appear you have nothing better to do than rag on people all day. And what, exactly, do you hope to accomplish by pointing out your husband is an American Veteran? Is that supposed to make him better than the rest of us?
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post Oct 8 2012, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE(kcmoedoe @ Oct 8 2012, 10:30 PM) *

If what you posted was what you were told by the Veteran's Administration and what you found from your years of law research, it was incorrect. Here is the link the the US department of Justice's ADA information on Service Animals: www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
If you take the time to look at the information, you will notice my post was factually correct, spelling be darned. BTW, since you posted around noon, twice in the 2pm hour, once in the 3pm hour, then in the 4pm hour and finally in the 5pm hour, it kind of does appear you have nothing better to do than rag on people all day. And what, exactly, do you hope to accomplish by pointing out your husband is an American Veteran? Is that supposed to make him better than the rest of us?



From your posted link

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the personís disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

Some State and local laws also define service animal more broadly than the ADA does. Information about such laws can be obtained from the State attorney generalís office

Although very informative it does not quote any cases before the courts with regards to these issues which is exactly what I did....

To me ALL VETERANS are better people than the average US citizen. They gave up a lot more than we will ever understand. Some of them also have some inappropriate behaviors towards certain situations because for their training, thus requiring a different than "normal" tactic in handling.

Some days I have more "down time" than others due to medical conditions. Today happened to be one of those... Tomorrow may be a different story... Hows your health, perfect I imagine.....
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kcmoedoe
post Oct 9 2012, 10:28 AM
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QUOTE(Full-Timer RV'er @ Oct 8 2012, 10:32 PM) *

From your posted link

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the personís disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

Some State and local laws also define service animal more broadly than the ADA does. Information about such laws can be obtained from the State attorney generalís office

Although very informative it does not quote any cases before the courts with regards to these issues which is exactly what I did....

To me ALL VETERANS are better people than the average US citizen. They gave up a lot more than we will ever understand. Some of them also have some inappropriate behaviors towards certain situations because for their training, thus requiring a different than "normal" tactic in handling.

Some days I have more "down time" than others due to medical conditions. Today happened to be one of those... Tomorrow may be a different story... Hows your health, perfect I imagine.....

There is some misunderstanding regarding terms. If your husband's dog is trained to assist him with PTSD then it is legally is "Service Dog". An example of a "therapy dog" would be a dog trained to visit hospitals and nursing homes and interact with a multiple people.
As for your husband being better than the average citizen, I find that repulsive. Our country was founded on the principle that we are all equal. If someone does or does not serve in the military is really immaterial. Unless he is a Vietnam Vet or really old and served in Korea or WW2 he VOLUNTEERED to be in the military. While his service is noble, it is a choice he made. If he responds "inappropriately" to certain situations, he needs to get help and avoid those situations.
Apparently, there is much more to this story than just the park's refusal to allow your dogs. Sounds like a confrontation occured, and it was spurred by your husband. Was the park's refusal to allow you to stay based more on your husband's actions and maybe not so much about the service dogs?
You took me to task about how your service dogs are your pets, yet you quoted the ADA statement that Service Dogs are not pets, guess I was right about that. If you have some knowledge of pending ADA litigation, so what? It is everyone's right to sue anyone about anything. Only when the outcome of the case is determined does it carry any legal significance.
As for my health, what difference does it make? But if you need to know, I either 1) have never been sick a day in my life, 2) have age appropriate health conditions or 3) am confined to a wheelchair which would explain why I have some knowledge of disability law. You just never know
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Posts in this topic
Full-Timer RV'er   Pet Owners & Rv Park Reviews.   Oct 8 2012, 12:03 PM
Texasrvers   I realize your post is asking about if you will ha...   Oct 8 2012, 01:05 PM
Full-Timer RV'er   I realize your post is asking about if you will h...   Oct 8 2012, 02:35 PM
GandJ   That comment about disabled people being lazy is j...   Oct 8 2012, 01:18 PM
Full-Timer RV'er   Just curious though, how did you get ADA docs for...   Oct 8 2012, 02:27 PM
Full-Timer RV'er   Copied and pasted from this park's reviews... ...   Oct 8 2012, 03:09 PM
Texasrvers   OK, you have tried to make your point again, so I ...   Oct 8 2012, 03:40 PM
kcmoedoe   You cannot be denied access anywhere except areas ...   Oct 8 2012, 03:57 PM
Full-Timer RV'er   You cannot be denied access anywhere except areas...   Oct 8 2012, 04:16 PM
kcmoedoe   Where shall I begin - "therapy dogs do not ...   Oct 8 2012, 05:17 PM
Full-Timer RV'er   You need to brush up on your ADA compliance. Fo...   Oct 8 2012, 05:26 PM
GandJ   And IF this park didn't already have one revi...   Oct 8 2012, 07:39 PM
Full-Timer RV'er   If you had already read bad reviews of the place,...   Oct 8 2012, 10:17 PM
GandJ   Your friend's girlfriend would need to be eva...   Oct 9 2012, 11:50 AM
Full-Timer RV'er   Just between us, I thought he was kind of a jerk ...   Oct 9 2012, 12:32 PM
kcmoedoe   I guess then the ADA information we were given by...   Oct 8 2012, 09:30 PM
Full-Timer RV'er   If what you posted was what you were told by the ...   Oct 8 2012, 10:32 PM
kcmoedoe   From your posted link Service animals are defin...   Oct 9 2012, 10:28 AM
Full-Timer RV'er   There is some misunderstanding regarding terms. I...   Oct 9 2012, 10:44 AM
kcmoedoe   You seemed to have missed the point completely ab...   Oct 9 2012, 02:35 PM
Full-Timer RV'er   Still don't know what being a "newbie...   Oct 9 2012, 03:03 PM
kcmoedoe   FYI - When asked how many "pets" - We d...   Oct 9 2012, 08:20 PM
Full-Timer RV'er   When it is not obvious what service an animal prov...   Oct 8 2012, 10:53 PM
Texasrvers   Ok guys, this is enough. We don't care who st...   Oct 9 2012, 08:35 PM


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