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Beastdriver
First of all, I am about as conservative as you can get, and I don't like government or government intervention. Secondly, I fully expect to receive a ton of opposition to my position, some hate mail, and maybe even a threat or two. But I feel I must speak.

My son is a professor at Virginia Tech and he called me today to discuss the shootings (as of now 32 dead) on the campus at Virginia Tech this morning. Almost all the deaths occurred in the building next to his office.

It is inconceivable to me how anybody can still take the position that the ease of getting guns in this country is right. Some nut goes out and, according to current news reports, acquires not one but two 9mm handguns and then wipes out over two dozen people. If we had responsible gun laws in this country, this would not have happened. It is difficult to kill 32 people with a knive, or a baseball bat, or whatever.

It is time, in my humble opinion, that we stop this madness and make it damned difficult for anybody other than cops and soldiers to get handguns. What will it take to wake up this country to the utter stupidity of our current laws?

I am leaving on Friday of this week for a couple of weeks in New Zealand, a country where even the cops don't carry guns (except for a special squad), and where handgun deaths are virtually unheard of. You simply cannot find a handgun in New Zealand. Its time we consider something like this in this country.

Okay. Fire away. It's your turn.
John Blue
I agree with your post. We found your post and them put CNN on to see more information. Sad to see that 33 people were killed due to a nut with a gun. No, we do not need hand guns in USA. At no time in our life do we carry a hand gun. No one needs one! Now the people in Washinton will spent years talked about this shooting and that will be the end of it. mad.gif
gomershad
This isn't New Zealand. It's a highly "diversified" country of over 300 million people - nutjobs and all. It's a proven fact that gun laws, concealed carry, etc. actually reduce crime in areas where they're VOTED in. Again - VOTED (a la democracy, USA, apple pie, and Old Glory). Further, it's unlikely the nut who shot-up Va Tech had a crime record. If he hadn't used a gun, he'd used an IED or something.

Remember your post the next time you're at a remote State campground in November, the only camper and possible the only person around for miles and you get a knock at the door in the middle of the night. Read TrailerLife, RV View, etc. - this stuff happens all the time (state campgrounds are magnets for transient rif raf).

You have a moral obligation to protect your wife and kids. Unless you want to knife, ballbat, or "whatever" the intruder.

Now - let's get this type of thread out of "RV Park Reviews" and get back to stuff like "Have you ever had this happen at the dump station?" type of post.
gsbogart
QUOTE(Beastdriver @ Apr 16 2007, 04:41 PM) *

First of all, I am about as conservative as you can get, and I don't like government or government intervention. Secondly, I fully expect to receive a ton of opposition to my position, some hate mail, and maybe even a threat or two. But I feel I must speak.

My son is a professor at Virginia Tech and he called me today to discuss the shootings (as of now 32 dead) on the campus at Virginia Tech this morning. Almost all the deaths occurred in the building next to his office.

It is inconceivable to me how anybody can still take the position that the ease of getting guns in this country is right. Some nut goes out and, according to current news reports, acquires not one but two 9mm handguns and then wipes out over two dozen people. If we had responsible gun laws in this country, this would not have happened. It is difficult to kill 32 people with a knive, or a baseball bat, or whatever.

It is time, in my humble opinion, that we stop this madness and make it damned difficult for anybody other than cops and soldiers to get handguns. What will it take to wake up this country to the utter stupidity of our current laws?

I am leaving on Friday of this week for a couple of weeks in New Zealand, a country where even the cops don't carry guns (except for a special squad), and where handgun deaths are virtually unheard of. You simply cannot find a handgun in New Zealand. Its time we consider something like this in this country.

Okay. Fire away. It's your turn.

With all do respect....
When will the citizenry of our country get it through their heads that only law abiding folk pay any attention to laws controlling guns. Demented people will find what evermeans necessary to complete their dastardly deeds.

Enough said

gsbogart
COWolfPack
First off I would like to offer my deepest sympathies and prayers to the victims of this horrible tragedy. The only thing sadder is the fact that there are people out there that will now use such an event to push their own political agenda. The dust hasn't even settled and people will already be on their soap boxes. Then they take partial and incomplete news stories and run away with their ideas.

QUOTE
It is inconceivable to me how anybody can still take the position that the ease of getting guns in this country is right. Some nut goes out and, according to current news reports, acquires not one but two 9mm handguns and then wipes out over two dozen people. If we had responsible gun laws in this country, this would not have happened.


They haven't even released the identity of the killer yet. How did he acquire the handguns? Was it done legally or illegally? Did he have a criminal record? Has he had a history of mental problems? Did he show any signs of mental problems before this incident? Did people notice some abhorrent behavior before hand and do nothing about it? Can you answer any of these questions yet? We do have responsible gun laws in this country but how can you question them in this case without having all of the facts? For all we know he could have been a model citizen up to this point and obtained the guns legally and just snapped. He also could have been a felon with a record as long as the day and got the guns illegally. How can you be certain that if we had more gun laws that this would have been stopped? It is a sad fact that there are evil people in the world. It is also a sad fact that evil people will not respect the laws in the first place. An evil person will always find a way to do evil. Could more laws have prevented this? Very doubtful. I could just as easily say "well if just one person had a concealed carry permit and was carrying a gun this could have been prevented because they could have shot the killer." Would this be possible? I would give it a better chance than more laws preventing it.

In the end what we need to do is stop demonizing the tool and find the cause of the problem. We need to stop trying to treat the symptoms and attack the disease itself. What is the disease? In my opinion it lies in the moral degradation of our country. It lies in the fact that people will tend to look to blame others rather than accept responsibility for their own actions. It lies in the fact that people are willing to give up their freedoms for a false sense of security instead of fighting to correct the issue responsibly. It lies in the fact that as a whole we are becoming a self-absorbed nation with little regard for the rights and freedoms of others. This has become very evident in the types of laws that are being passed recently. How do we fix it? That is something the we as a people have to come together and decide. We eventually just have to stand up and say, "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!" Until this happens I do not see things getting any better any time soon.
Beastdriver
Gomer: You most certainly have an appropriate name.

GSBogart: It's due respect, not "do respect" but, what can I say?
Big Ben
I don't think that this is the proper forum for this subject. Next thing we will be tell each other how to vote.
gsbogart
QUOTE(Beastdriver @ Apr 16 2007, 11:13 PM) *

Gomer: You most certainly have an appropriate name.

GSBogart: It's due respect, not "do respect" but, what can I say?

Beastdriver
Thank you for the english verbatum lesson.....
Big Ben
Any time you don't agree with the Beast Driver, you can expect his sarcasm. May be he will stay in New Zealand.
Cheryl Fuller
As a parent, I cannot even imagine the desparation and agony that must have been experienced by those who have children at VA Tech, while they were waiting to hear from their child. My heart breaks for those who got the news today that they would never be able to talk to or hug their child again. I hope you will all keep them in your prayers. I do agree that gun laws will not deter criminals. The majority of weapons used in violent crimes are not registered to the assailant, as they did not acquire them thru legal channels. I do own a handgun and have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. A background check was required to purchase the firearm and a safety class, shooting accuracy test and another extensive background check by the C.B.I had to be completed to obtain the permit. I have never had to pull the weapon on anyone, and it is certainly my hope and prayer that I never will, but if the lives of myself or my family were being threatened by some thug, I would know how to handle the gun. As COWolfPack stated, we do not yet know what means the shooter used to obtain his guns. Fox News had a former FBI profiler on this afternoon and he said he expects that we will discover that the assailant has had run-ins with the law before and quite possibly has served prison time. He also thinks he more than likely has been diagnosed with mental instablities (well that is a no-brainer, a person would have to be unbalanced to have no regard for human life!!!). While this is just his impression, it may or may not be true - but the gunman was obviously determined to wreak destruction and death on innocent people today, and I think he would have carried out his plans whether he legally purchased his guns or not - he would have found a way. I cannot help but have sympathy for his parents also. Not only have they lost their child, but must live with the aftermath of what their son did. I know this can be an explosive subject and I think we must all just agree to disagree and respect each others opinions. I do have the right to bear arms and I do not abuse that right and I treat it with the responsibilty it requires. I am not going to change my mind nor am I going to try and change any of yours, so let's just all try to get along...
Beastdriver
Cheryl: You make some good points. I don't agree with you, but your explanation of your position is good.

CoWolfPack: Likewise, some good points. But can we come up with some way to keep the weapons from the crazies while we are psychoanalyzing them?

Bogart: You are welcome. By the way, I'm sure you mean verbatim instead of verbatum, but what can I say?

Pig Pen: So I'm sarcastic in your opinion? Is this the same Pig Pen who on Februarty 27th said about this site: I'm not sure I would call it a club, but there are times that some try to intimidate others on (this site.) And are you the same one who, on March 14, in response to one members' complaints about people who don't pick up dog poop, responded that wildlife poop is everywhere and no one has a problem with that..." And is the same person who, on February 27, accused a member of being "paranoid" because she was concerned about a valid issue? Or the same Pig Pen who told another member who responded that his comments on an issue were just his opinion and he was entitled to it by saying "You are absolutely right. You are entitled to your opinion. When you keep it to yourself. Or the same guy, who, when a member disagreed with him, responded by saying, "If you are not interested, why post (on this site)?

Point is, we all tend to be sarcastic from time to time, including you. So lighten up. Ooops. I just noticed by my "P" and "B" keys were screwed up. Pardon me, Big Ben.
John S.
Ok, first of all I am very sad about the events at VT. I had a daughter who attended and graduated a couple years ago as did her husband and they were engineers. It is a sd turn of events. I will also say that the gun control issue is one where people will not agree on them but if you ever needed one you will need it right then not later. The police do not protect they clean up afterwards and can not be with you at all times. I was a cop and know it could take me 30 mins to get across the county to the call and I was the only one and I had no backup then either and knew I would have to handle it. I also know that handguns are a compromise and I would rather a shotgun or a rifle but you can not carry one all the time as you can a hand gun.

If you are in a secluded campground in the woods late at night and the sheriff is on the other side of the county you may be on your own for a while. You have to protect yourself and your family. Cities have their own issues too but that is more complex but you can have an issue and it will be over well before any help can get to you. You have to decide and take responsibility for your own actions and remember it is a responsibility.

Also the Washington Post did a study of Montgomery and Fairfax Counties a few years after the laws changed and shall issue permits were issued. The fact that the demographics were similar in all respects but the difference in crime rates were asounding. The only difference was that criminals knew that in VA they ran a better chance of running into a gun owner who will kill you while the police would not do so. Interesting article and they did not like it and stated that there had to be other reasons. There have also been academic studies backing this up too.

I had to have my handgun out while sitting in the motorhome at a rest stop in the middle of the day and I was glad I had my pistol. I was not doing anything other than eating lunch in the middle of the day.

I willo respect those who do not want to carry or wwn one but the country was founded and birthed by men who brought their own guns. They still protect us today. I would hate to say no guns then the mob of kids with knives will come and bother you and you will be using hand to hand combat to deter it and then we willl ban the knives.... well it is personal responsibility. I will not go so far as to say that they should allow guns on school grounds but VA Tech was a corp school and still has the Corp there. The kids deserve a safe place to learn and study but they will find out that the world is not a safe place...
Butch
In reading the posted opinions/experiences of others, hand gun control will be an issue every time someone, without concern for others, uses a hand gun to settle an issue. We live in a sick world, at a sad time. Personally, I find myself torn between those who call for hand guns to be banned and those who oppose any control of hand guns. I can see the pros and cons of both sides and agree with the each side. Their points are very powerful, but I do not see an answer that will accommodate both sides.

Let us not forget those who have lost their lives, or those who were wounded. Our thoughts and prayers are needed as a comfort to those involved families, in their time of need. They need our compassion.
rodman
It's always a shame when something like this happens how all the arm chair quarterbacks come out. There are some good points that have been made and some that just don't make much sense. Do you really think tougher gun controll would have made a difference, lets say make them wait 60 days before getting it. He would just have bought it sooner or waited longer to do it. He was going to do this no matter what, guns, explosives tied to his waiste, whatever. Now people will start looking for someone to blame, the college didn't do something righ, the teachers should have noticed this and had him locked up. Beastdriver face it, this is not a perfect world, there are crazy people everywhere and no amount of goverment control, big brother watching over your shoulder is going to keep you safer. Raise your children right and just hope for the best. Love your family and friends like there is no tomorrow everyday.

Just my opinion
Beastdriver
John S., Rodman, and Butch:

All of your responses were very thoughful and thought-provoking ones and, I must admit, have some validity. I, too, have been in situations where I wished I had a gun (one time in a shopping center parking lot in the motorhome when a bunch of trash came up in an old clunker, saw the motorhome, and asked us to give them some money When I refused, they hung around and kept looking at us until we drove away.) But I am still opposed to the easy acquisition of hand guns. We may be reaching a point where we have to give up a cherished freedom (the right to bear arms), in order to preserve and protect other freedoms (the right to be safe and not be killed in your own home or at your school.) I know that, everytime I go to the airport to get on a plane, I get so angry at all the crap, searches, questions, restrictions, etc., that we now have. But I understand, and accept, this loss of freedom as the price of freedom. It is truly a tough question.
bigredoes
Is it almost Friday???

I doubt that no matter what opinion is posted here that it will change anyone's mind one way or the other so may we get back to getting along with each other.....
Retired Pickle
I am indeed sorry about the VA Tech incident and my heart goes out to the families. Still, I maintain my right to bear arms. Remember, when guns are outlawed - only outlaws will have guns. There is a lot of truth to that statement. The bad guys are going to get the guns no matter what. I like having the right to have my guns to protect myself and family from those bad guys! I am a sworn public safety officer in the fire division. I believe in citizens having the right to own their guns. I am 100 percent against gun control.
AGBAT
Most every university bans guns on campus, maybe, if that was not true, one gunman would not be able to cause so many deaths. Criminals seek locations where victims are defenseless. If the instructors and/or students were allowed handguns, the death toll would have been a lot smaller. I have been in a "mad" gunman situation and it was a armed citizen that killed the attacker.
RLM
Beastdriver> "Fire away" ?? Considering the topic, perhaps not the best choice of words.

I sat here for several minutes considering whether I wanted to comment considering that, as one other mentioned, it probably isn't the right topic for this website. The webmaster is probably pulling his hair out.

1- Why don't the hundreds of positive stories about how guns used in self defense have actually saved someone's life make the news? Media bias, of course.

2. If the VT administration had allowed previous student body requests to carry concealed, perhaps we wouldn't be discussing this issue. VA has a CC law.

3- Law enforcement professionals can't be everywhere all of the time. In all likelihood they cannot prevent an attack on you, regardless of the weapon used. They will show up to investigate it, tho.

4- You are absolutely correct. Let's enforce the gun laws we already have.

5- If you visit the state of Texas, be glad that many of us are licensed CCP holders. It is a hugh crime deterrent. Don't take my word for it, ask a criminal.


Rick
"I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6"
gsbogart
QUOTE(Big Ben @ Apr 17 2007, 12:17 AM) *

Any time you don't agree with the Beast Driver, you can expect his sarcasm. May be he will stay in New Zealand.


Well you know what they say...."If you can't dazzle them with your footwork, confuse them with your jitterjive". "what can I say"
Beastdriver
Bogart: Congratulations! You got an entire paragraph finished without a single mispelled or misused word. There is hope!
Big Ben
Do they still have cannibals in New Zealand??
Butch
Gooooood Grief !!!!
Beastdriver
Ben: No cannibals in New Zealand but they do have people who are man enough to address issues on this site instead of private e-mails but, of course, you would not know about that.
Big Ben
Beast Driver, don't you real think the best way to handle a personal problem is by private mail?
Because I wrote you personlly you question my manhood. You posted you ideas on a terrible event, and voiced your opinion on gun control. Several disagreed with you and for that you call them names. You do a great job of tiring to ridicule people who disagree with you. You and I had a diagreement some time ago and you have been nit picking ever since.
I can not help but wonder what kind of man you are face to face, when you can not hide behind the screen.
bigredoes
Actually 'all knowing one' you misspelled the word misspelled......tsk tsk must be tiring trying to be perfect....
gsbogart
QUOTE(Beastdriver @ Apr 20 2007, 05:44 PM) *

Bogart: Congratulations! You got an entire paragraph finished without a single mispelled or misused word. There is hope!


This guy Beastdriver reminds me of a politician who runs around trying to tell everyone else how to do whatever and can't get his act together himself. That is the problem in society today. Many cannot see the forest for the trees, and in fact try to confuse every issue so that it makes them look like they know the answer to everything. Many just end up showing their ignorance as a result. They trip over their lips....when they stoop to sarchism.

"but what can I say"?
Beastdriver
Big Ben: As I said to you in my response to your pathetic private e-mail, I refuse to get involved in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Big Red: Actually mispelled is correct. There are two Webster-accepted ways of spelling this word.

Bogart: You are getting much, much better. This time an even longer paragraph without a mispelled or misused word. Maybe you can work your way up to two or three paragraphs.

I'm off to New Zealand in a couple of hours so I won't have the pleasure of parrying with you posters for a few weeks. I will miss it!
gsbogart
QUOTE(Beastdriver @ Apr 21 2007, 12:23 PM) *

Big Ben: As I said to you in my response to your pathetic private e-mail, I refuse to get involved in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Big Red: Actually mispelled is correct. There are two Webster-accepted ways of spelling this word.

Bogart: You are getting much, much better. This time an even longer paragraph without a mispelled or misused word. Maybe you can work your way up to two or three paragraphs.

I'm off to New Zealand in a couple of hours so I won't have the pleasure of parrying with you posters for a few weeks. I will miss it!



Good riddance..."but what can I say"
bigredoes
Nice try Beast...... but just cuz you sez it - don't make it true......there is only ONE spelling for misspelled and it ain't how you be doin it....... hope you have a nice restful and long holiday in New Zealand but please don't leave us too long tho not sure we will survive too long here without your knowledge and expertise....
rodman
I try and not get caught up in this kind of debate but I guess it's one of those subjects that touches everyone in one way or another. I don't post allot so Beastdriver you won't have to look real hard to find my stuff to try and throw n my face and really my spelling does leave allot to be desired but I think you'll get my point. I have read allot of the posts by most of the regulars like Cheryl and Ben and WolfPack and others. I don't always agree with everyone but I do respect them and their opinions, I don't go on a personal attack. These are good honest people just stating their opinion. Here are my credentials, I am a natural born American who enjoys all the rights everyone who has died in wars making sure I have. Think of all the countless people that have given their lives so you can stand up on your soap box and run your mouth and not have anyone arrest you for speaking your opinion, which happens to be another right. Don't go trying to give away my rights like so many polliticians because you think you are right. There was nothing that was going to stop that guy at VT or anywhere else for that matter. Feel sadnees, feel pain or anger. If you feel like you would be safer in another country please pack up your motor home and have it shipped somewhere else and go, which happens to be another freedom you can use. Everyone else, I enjoy reading your respecful comments and opinions. Those of you who are law enforcment or firefighter's, thank you for protecting me and my family, everyone else thank you for watching out for me and my friends and family when we are in an RV park or traveling.

As always just my opinion
mastercraft
The incident at VT reminds me of how our society as a whole is going. Political correctness has as much to blame in this incident as anything else. While I agree that handguns are a serious problem in our society, I also agree with other posters that the criminals will get the handguns even if gun laws are stricter than they are now. Just as the right to freedom of speach has been brought up in this post so has the right to bear arms. Our freedoms in this country are unique to this country and is what make this country special. I stayed out of this debate for a while to see what others posted. The verbage used in this thread relates to the rights of free speach. On a topic such as this, we are all going to have different opinions and that is what makes this forum unique. If the politicians take away my right to bear arms, which freedom will be next? We have to remember that the situation at VT was a horrible incident that was the first of its kind in our nation. Hopefully we will figure out the cause to prevent it from happening again instead of blaming the method. Just my two cents.
rodman
Mastercraft,

Very well put. Thank you,
BBear
Here's my two cents on this subject...I don't think any type of tougher gun laws would have stopped this man from doing what he did. If he would not have been able to get the guns legally, he would have gotten them illegally. But, I do have to say, I never knew someone who was not legally a citizen of this country was even allowed to purchase a weapon in this country.
RLM
rodman> Wished I had said that.
Cheryl Fuller
Okay guys, how about a big group hug and then we move on, okay??? This has proven to be a very controversial subject and I think we need to move past it and all try to respect each other's opinions and exist in harmony here on the board. Beastdriver, even though your son is an adult and a professor, I know that you must have experienced great worry and anxiety knowing he was on that campus and in harm's way. I am so happy for you, that he did not sustain any physical harm on that awful day. I think that maybe the fact that your son was in harm's way made this so much more personal for you and you took great umbrage at some of the posts here. It was obvious from your original post, that you felt passionately about this. I am not speaking out against you or anyone else on this forum, but I will say that I think Big Ben did the right thing in trying to communicate with you regarding this issue out of the public eye. I don't know what was said in those pm's nor do I want to know, but I do honestly think he was trying to bring peace back to the group. Rodman, I think your post was very well put and it did give me something to think about - I always thank military personnel when I see them in uniform - seems it is usually in the airport but I have seen them at other places also. I will now begin to do the same with firefighters and police officers. Thanks for calling that to mind. We have had some topics here that have the tendency to get "out of hand" and I really do try to stay away from them. Yes, I did get caught up in one recently when I felt that my son was being attacked but that was just the "mama hen" coming out in me. Each and every one here has so much to contribute, and I hope we can move past this and be a lot kinder to each other. I realize that I am going to incur some negative posts in response to this, but I really think it needed to be said. Lately, there have been days that I don't even come to the forum because I just know there is going to be more bickering and I have enough drama going on in my life with adding some that I don't have to. Okay, I realize a IPB Image is unlikey, but how about a few biggrin.gif 's????
BBear
I know let's all get in a circle, join hands and sing "Kumbaya"! biggrin.gif

I think this was a great topic to talk about...how boring the world would be if no controversy existed and everyone had the exact same thoughts and opinions.

I don't like the personal attacks on people, but then again, I can always ignore them.

I think it's better to talk about issues such as this than keep them bottled up inside...and this is "General Chat"...can't see why this topic can't be discussed here among adults.
rodman
Very well put Cheryl. I meant what I said about the people here. They all for the most part are good people. I know everyone here would defend each other anywhere they happen to be. It's hard not to take a subject like personal, it affects all of us, after all these freedom's are something worth fighting for, American's for generations have thought so and fought for them we are just keeping up the fight, even if just the pen.

Just my opinion
gsbogart
This is true, check it out. www.SNOPES.com
Type in : Australian Gun Law


Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts...

From: Ed Chenel, A police officer in Australia

Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under. It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in:


Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,


Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent ;


Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!


In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent.


(Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.

Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in "successfully ridding Australian society of guns" You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.

The Australian experience speaks for itself. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note Americans, before it's too late!
John S.
The Washington Post a couple years ago had an article saying they could not figure out why the crime rate in Montgomery COunty MD was so much higher than in Fairfax County VA. There was similar demographics and income and resources spent on policing. Well the difference is gun laws. MD restricts them and VA lets it citizens owna nd carry them. I have interviewed and talked with people who have committed crimes and there comments have usually run the range of they kill you in VA to a cop will arrest you but a homeowner will shoot you. Yes guns in principle deter crime as well as being used in crimes. There is a sheriff in PA who is holding classes for all the business owners in his town to get them trained to be able to carry a concelled weapon becase he says the police can not protect you. It takes a few mins for them to arrive and by that time yo may be dead or dying. It takes seconds and if you can not fight back you are at the mercy of the crack head or who ever wants what you have. I will say that if you do not want to own or carry a gun that is fine. I respect that but look at the statistics in AUS. and see that criminals will always fine a way to get them and if they think you are armed (many RVers are and that gives a crimial pause) even if you are not then you are safer too.
pianotuna
Hi,

In Canada carrying a hand gun is not really an option. Here are the results of this law:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/ads/82-003-XPE/pdf/16-4-04.pdf

For those of you who do not wish to read the document, death from firearm related injury is 0.5 per 100,000 people in Canada--and in USA 3.8 per 100,000 people.

Your "right to bear arms" comes at a very high price.
jmo
QUOTE
It is inconceivable to me how anybody can still take the position that the ease of getting guns in this country is right.


I just don't get the harm or bother imposed on those who qualify in tightening up this process.

jmo
John S.
I know that this is an emotional discussion but if youtake the emotion out of it you will that John Longenecker is right in this artile he published after the shootings. I have excerpted part of it here. It is an interesting take on the bill of rights. It is not that we have to have the rights it is that the government may not take them away from us. THat is the problem with the laws being passed, everyone wants to take the rights away and that is what the bill of rights prohibt. There was a huge decison in the Parker Case last week in the US Court for DC on DC restriction on Handuns and it will be have much bigger reprecussion than many will think.

Here is an except on this.

1. The second amendment was not written either as a collective nor individual right because it wasn’t written for citizens. It was written for Government as the entire Document is written to define our rights and to put limits on government. Government cannot grant rights, and itself has no rights. Only citizens have rights and those rights trump the interests of agencies just as citizen rights trump the interests of the people. 2A puts limits on government and puts no limits on citizens on this question and for the reason that the citizen is the ultimate legislature and supreme authority. That is the original intent because abuse of due process was the basis of the War for Independence.

Because 2A was not written for you and me but written for Government, it’s just stupid to think that Government (including courts, appointed officials and law enforcement) gets a say-so or even an opinion in protecting its own interests over that of citizens, interests of officials which conflict with the authority of the citizen. Which prevails? Citizen rights and authority prevails.

2. The Founders did not care which weapons they did or did not foresee in centuries ahead because they didn’t view weapons as the danger to the nation. The Founders viewed takings as a danger, and how, brother. They knew all about takings. 2A was not written about weapons they could or could not foresee: it was written because the Founders foresaw abuses of due process in any time, any era, and even any administration or office. "Shall not be infringed" bars applying due process to takings of the lethal force which backs citizen authority. No state is immune to this creeping abuse of process in powers not granted, not even the United States, and the Founders knew it only too well. It was not guns, but abuse of due process the Founders foresaw in writing the second amendment.

So, the Founders gave the power of ultimate authority not to officials, but to the armed citizen, and that precludes any gun control, inclduing regulation. Officials and 2008 candidates, by dint of their oath, may not quarrel with this, and may not even legally entertain any anti-gun sway of activists any more than they may entertain lobbying for the ownership of one person by another in this country. Not even a little.

Yes, some parts of the Constitution are absolute: the law against involuntary servitude and the law against infringing on the lethal force which backs citizen authority.

The language of the second amendment was written to avoid even this debate, for there is no debate as to who runs this country – we do – and no debate as to how we back our authority.

Any idea of accepting SCOTUS decisions on this question is a mistake by affirming one of the greatest legal errors in this nation’s development, and that would be the people’s idea that a court decides what the Founders have already decided: citizen authority is backed by force, and 2A was not about guns, it was about takings of guns. Not written for us, but for government, and that would have to include the Supremes.

The matter must be resolved by Congress in the repeal of all gun laws. All guns laws are illegal because they chip away at the legal and lethal force which backs the authority of the citizen over the executive. Gun laws are illegal because the amendment was not written for the citizen, it was written for the very officials who claim authority to decide the issue. Cangress can dump it all, and I'll hold your coat.

So-called sensible regulation, types of weapon or ammunition, where it may be carried or not, or even a debate on collective or individual right are each a non-issue when such abuse of due process against citizen authority is what the Founders anticipated in writing the second amendment to the Constitution of The United States.

Any further delay on the affirmation of this truth would be positive proof that our greatest fears have come true.

Now is the time to repeal all guns laws.
pianotuna
Hi,

Now is the time for the USA to modify the second amendment. Hand guns are good for just two things--target practice and killing people.

QUOTE(John S. @ May 19 2007, 12:30 PM) *


Now is the time to repeal all guns laws.
Big Ben
QUOTE(pianotuna @ May 19 2007, 12:11 PM) *

Hi,

Now is the time for the USA to modify the second amendment. Hand guns are good for just two things--target practice and killing people.

QUOTE(John S. @ May 19 2007, 12:30 PM) *


Now is the time to repeal all guns laws.




Not necessarily true. There are those that chose to hunt with handguns. They do a marvelous job of protecting a lot of us from bad guys and other creepy crawly things.
Beastdriver
Ben: While I am sure there are some things that people "hunt" with handguns (other than other people), I can't recall any of them? What exactly do people hunt with handguns?
Big Ben
I lived in Ohio for a number of years and a deer hunter there has a choice of muzzle loader, a shotgun with slugs or a hand gun .357 and over. Many of us chose a hand gun, myself included.
Page through a hand gun magazine and you will find several hand guns in very large calibers that are made with the idea of hunting large game. Thompson Center makes a single shot hand gun that is made in many rifle calibers that has taken every species of land animals.
Like many things, once you are familar with it, you may see it in a differant light.
John S.
QUOTE(Beastdriver @ May 20 2007, 11:47 AM) *

Ben: While I am sure there are some things that people "hunt" with handguns (other than other people), I can't recall any of them? What exactly do people hunt with handguns?



I have hunted wild boar, deer and got a special permit to hunt a bear one time in ME as a test report for the Fish and Wildlife people there and the gun manufacturer who was tring to sell them the gun.
Wadcutter
Deer, coyote, groundhog, rabbit, squirrel. Currently setting up a wild boar hunt.
John S.
Here is a story of an 11 year old boy who went hunting for wild hog with a pistol... It comes from todays AP wire.



MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) - Hogzilla is being made into a horror movie. But the sequel may be even bigger: Meet Monster Pig. An 11-year-old Alabama boy used a pistol to kill a wild hog his father says weighed a staggering 1,051 pounds and measured 9-feet-4 from the tip of its snout to the base of its tail. Think hams as big as car tires.
If the claims are accurate, Jamison Stone's trophy boar would be bigger than Hogzilla, the famed wild hog that grew to seemingly mythical proportions after being killed in south Georgia in 2004.

Hogzilla originally was thought to weigh 1,000 pounds and measure 12 feet in length. National Geographic experts who unearthed its remains believe the animal actually weighed about 800 pounds and was 8 feet long.

Regardless of the comparison, Jamison is reveling in the attention over his pig, which has a Web site put up by his father—http://www.monsterpig.com —that is generating Internet buzz.

"It feels really good," Jamison, of Pickensville, said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press. "It's a good accomplishment. I probably won't ever kill anything else that big."

Jamison, who killed his first deer at age 5, was hunting with father Mike Stone and two guides in east Alabama on May 3 when he bagged Hogzilla II. He said he shot the huge animal eight times with a .50- caliber revolver and chased it for three hours through hilly woods before finishing it off with a point-blank shot.

Through it all there was the fear that the animal would turn and charge them, as wild boars have a reputation of doing.

"I was a little bit scared, a little bit excited," said Jamison, who just finished the sixth grade on the honor roll at Christian Heritage Academy, a small, private school.

His father said that, just to be extra safe, he and the guides had high-powered rifles aimed and ready to fire in case the beast with 5- inch tusks decided to charge.

With the pig finally dead in a creek bed on the 2,500-acre Lost Creek Plantation, a commercial hunting preserve in Delta, trees had to be cut down and a backhoe brought in to bring Jamison's prize out of the woods.

It was hauled on a truck to the Clay County Farmers Exchange in Lineville, where Jeff Kinder said they used his scale, which was recently calibrated, to weigh the hog.

Kinder, who didn't witness the weigh-in, said he was baffled to hear the reported weight of 1,051 pounds because his scale—an old, manual style with sliding weights—only measures to the nearest 10.

"I didn't quite understand that," he said.

Mike Stone said the scale balanced one notch past the 1,050-pound mark, and he thought it meant a weight of 1,051 pounds.

"It probably weighed 1,060 pounds. We were just afraid to change it once the story was out," he said.

The hog's head is now being mounted on an extra-large foam form by Jerry Cunningham of Jerry's Taxidermy in Oxford. Cunningham said the animal measured 54 inches around the head, 74 inches around the shoulders and 11 inches from the eyes to the end of its snout.

"It's huge," he said. "It's just the biggest thing I've ever seen."

Mike Stone is having sausage made from the rest of the animal. "We'll probably get 500 to 700 pounds," he said.

Jamison, meanwhile, has been offered a small part in "The Legend of Hogzilla," a small-time horror flick based on the tale of the Georgia boar. The movie is holding casting calls with plans to begin filming in Georgia.

Jamison is enjoying the newfound celebrity generated by the hog hunt, but he said he prefers hunting pheasants to monster pigs.

"They are a little less dangerous."

Here is the web link too:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8...amp;image=large
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