Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Ouestion For Campers From A Park Owner
RV Park Reviews Campground Discussion Forum > RV Park and Campground Discussions > RV Park Discussions
Pages: 1, 2
campNout
I just came across ed this site couple of days ago, and have really enjoyed reading all the posts.
I came looking for information on WiFi and have posted a few questions and have gotten some good answers. In reading posts about Camp Reviews I have gotten the feeling that most campers do not like to pay for wifi or wifi provided by a third party. I have been working to add wifi for 2 years, I wanted to install it my self with no charge to guests. I realized that I could not install antennas on top of all buildings in park or all the other gizmos needed to get a signal over the whole park. I just paid a deposit 1/2 of the fee to have a third party install. After reading all the posts I feel I have made a expensive error, but it is to late now to back out.

Questions are to help me serve my guests and make their stay as pleasant as possible.

Why don't campers like third party wifi (I will not be getting any of the profit) even thou I am paying for all the equipment, additional charges for higher speed and an IP address PLUS $10.00 a month to company to maintain the site.

Here is a quote that I copied from a post. "" I will claim "false advertising" if the RV Park says "We have wireless" only to find out that you have to sign up with a third party "" Can you help me with the Proper way to let guests know wifi is available to them. What should I place on my web site.??? Would it correct to say wifi provider by *******. I am confused about this.

I have read that the price most are willing to pay is $2.00 a day. I don't know if I can convince the ***company to go with $2.00 but might be able to get the rate down to $3.00.

Here are my options Our In season rate is $40.00 (our rate is the lowest in our area, other parks are $75.00 - $90.00) Hey if I charged $90.00 I could have FREE wifi. I have a Internet coupon for $3.00 off the nightly rate. Also give $3.00 for AARP, Military etc. I could discontinue all discounts and pay the $3.00 my self so the guest could have WiFi FREE. Do you think I should do this or keep the discount and let the guest pay for wifi if they want it. I feel that by doing away with the discount I am making the ones who have no interest in internet {afer all they are on vacation} pay for the ones who do. PLEASE help me out here.

We use to charge $2.00 for cable tv. We did this because the guests with satellite did not need or want cable and were able to save $2.00. THIS Did not work as when guests found out the cable was $2.00 NO ONE Wanted ctv, BUT when we would go around the park most were hooked up to ctv. When asked NICELY about it they would say OH WE ONLY WANTED To watch one program. We had no choice but to add the $2.00 to the rate and make the ctv FREE.

I read posts by a camp owner who told of all the time spent helping people get on line. I know this is true as even with ctv we are constantly having to take a tv to the site to prove the cable works. WE SPEND HOURS A WEEK SHOWING PEOPLE HOW TO PROGRAM THEIR SETS TO GET CABLE. Cable has been a NIGHTMARE and now another BEAST coming my way Internet.

Until my contract is up with said company I am stuck and hope some one here will help point me in the right direction. Free (not really) or Pay. I can't pay the ***company when a guests goes on line and give the discount so which one is the better way.
Florida Native
QUOTE
Can you help me with the Proper way to let guests know wifi is available to them. What should I place on my web site.??? Would it correct to say wifi provider by *******. I am confused about this.


The term, “Wireless Available” in my opinion has come to mean 3rd party or paid WiFi available in my opinion. I hate it when I see "WiFi or We have WiFi" in the guide book or website, WiFi and then get there and see that I have to pay an additional $3.95. We always ask about this on the phone when making our daily choice and mentally add it in. I would much rather have free WiFi at the office than $4.95 to have it at the site. With a good antenna, I can usually pick it up at my site. I can always go up and do my email, banking, and next day campground searching at the office. Quality of signal is more important than at site signal. (for me at least).

In my opinion, you are much better off increasing your daily rate and not charging extra for WiFi. When you charge extra, you will get a lot more complaints about problems many of which won’t be your fault. People expect a lifetime guarantee for their three bucks.

In business, you are going to have a lot of people confused over cable, WiFi, power hookups and lots of things. It is this way in most businesses. A very good well thought out instruction sheet to give out at check in can stop a lot of this confusion as well as cut down on your time explaining where local attractions and dining places are located. When people get new coaches they get instructions on everything in the coach and they forget most of it. Lots of people only use their coach a couple of times a year and forget. You are dealing with lots of people who grew up with vacuum tube radios.

There are several good threads on this subject going back 2 years tht you might read. We also have some goog park owners who can help. Not having WiFi is going to really hurt your business in the long run and more and more RV’ers are thinking that daily internet is a must. The problem is that technology is changing so fast, that you don’t want to get stuck with an expensive outdated system.

Good Luck
Denali
Travelers nowadays expect free Internet access. Although we are full time RVers and never stay in hotels, I'll bet that those motels we see with their "Internet" signs are not generally charging for that service.

Lindsay is right. The only reasonable thing to do is to raise your rates to cover your costs for providing Internet access. As others have pointed out, that will probably relieve you of most of the support time you will be asked to provide, and since you say you are the least expensive park in the area, folks aren't likely to go elsewhere due to that increase.

Good luck.
Texasrvers
Those of you who know my lack of technical prowess are probably already laughing over the fact that I've joined in here, but I do have a thought that might have a bearing on how much equipment the OP should get. While I agree with the both Lindsay's and Denali's comments (Rvers expect free wi-fi and they expect it to work), I'm wondering if wi-fi will become obsolete in a few years because of the increasing use of air cards. Now again this is not something I fully understand, but I do know I have heard several members mention their air card. I think this is what Lindsay was getting at. It would be terrible to spend thousands of dollars on a wi-fi system now, and have it be obsolete in a year. Does anyone have an idea about which way the industry is going?
DXSMac
Air cards (Both Sprint and Verizon) are $59.99 a month, last I checked (and what I'm currently being charged with Verizon, although at one time there was a $49.99 special...). Kind of steep, (and I'm still paying for DSL at home, which doesn't get used when I'm in the RV!!!).

Also, my understanding is that some people get internet access with their satellite dish.

JJ
BJS
Keep the discount. Raise your rates just enough to cover the WiFi at the sites where it is available. Advertise free Wi-Fi but if it is not available every where in your park make it known that it is only available at selected sites and the office (assuming it is).

A well written handout at check-in for WiFi usage (just saw a PDF link on a campground site the other day which explained how to use it and why you might not be able to get on) will help each camper and hopefully you won't be called on for help very often.

Why don't you make up a handout to give at check -in with instructions on how to program TVs to get cable? Most sets are very similar and most problems not getting cable are the result of just a few situations. This probably won't eliminate all the hours you spend helping people but will most likely cut those hours down considerably.
westernrvparkowner
Wifi included in the site fees is the way to go. Contact your vendor and find out how much they will charge you to let your guests sign in at no charge. That being said, do not worry too much if you are unable to provide it for free. The guy that was going to claim "false advertising" and similar threats are all a lot of hot air. You wouldn't be expected to provide propane for free if you advertised "propane available". Don't worry about stuff like that. The biggest reason we include wifi in the fees is it improves customer satisfaction and reduces the complaints if the wifi is slower or has some problems. Most people don't feel right raising a ruckus about something they didn't directly pay for. A couple of dollars more for a site won't cause people to choose other parks and you may get a few new customers due to the WiFi
DXSMac
If you have it locked down with a special code so that people who live next door to your park can't use it, then you could still advertise it as "free," but charge $1 for the code. This would help you recoup some of the costs, and would be fair. I was at a park that did this. The $1 was good whether you stayed one day or one month.

JJ
Florida Native
I might not be up to speed on this (pun intended), but I don’t think air cards are fast enough for those of us who like to surf the internet and watch a lot of videos. I’m talking about the full screen, 3 minute type you see on a lot of news and informational sites. I keep hoping that WiMax or something similar is going to make WiFi obsolete, It has been coming soon for about the last 5 years, but still isn’t here yet. Technology has a very rapid pace. The phone I use daily would have been unheard of a few years ago. I have to believe internet reception is going to be similar. I have been using WiFi daily about 4 years now and have seen huge increases in quality and availability. When making the “secret code” you might want to select something easy. I have stayed at campgrounds with either a 10 or 24 digit ASCII code that had to be entered each time. One trick here is to put it into a word processing file and just past it in each time to say time and mistakes.
campNout
Thanks to ALL. I guess I am going to drop the discount, raise the rate just to cover ever what the daily rate turns out to be, and call it free. I feel really bad that I have to do this. What if a guest comes in and pays the higher rate but only uses the internet for 2 out of 5 days. MORE for me but we have never tried to SQUEEZE every dime we can out of people. I have always treated people like I want to be treated. During Holidays MOST parks here raise the rate you know supply and demand, we never have done that. Some times being fair is hard.

Before every thing went wireless we would let guests come to the office and plug into the phone jack for dial up and ask them to please limit to 15 minutes if at all possible, as we had one phone line. We had some sit on the coach for 4 hours, needless to say we had to stop sharing the line.

Thanks again, I might be back with more questions as no one knows the answers better than those that camp.
Texasrvers
QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ May 13 2009, 06:39 PM) *

I have stayed at campgrounds with either a 10 or 24 digit ASCII code that had to be entered each time. One trick here is to put it into a word processing file and just past it in each time to say time and mistakes.


We must have stayed at the same park(s), and what a pain it was to put in the code each time we logged on. As for for the tip about putting the code in a word processor, I had not thought of that. What a great idea! Thanks for mentioning it.
pianotuna
Hi campNout,

Yes, do call it "free" but make sure to mention that it is a third party provider and that you have no control over the quality or quantity of service.

A good hand out and PDF file would be an asset.

If you do not wish folks to "freeload" off the wifi that the campground is providing it would be best to have a security code. Changing it daily would be a hassle for longer term visitors--but changing it every two weeks may make that easier.

I hope your experience with wifi will be easier than the cable tv, but I fear I am wrong about that.

QUOTE(campNout @ May 13 2009, 06:17 PM) *

Thanks to ALL. I guess I am going to drop the discount, raise the rate just to cover ever what the daily rate turns out to be, and call it free. I feel really bad that I have to do this. What if a guest comes in and pays the higher rate but only uses the internet for 2 out of 5 days. MORE for me but we have never tried to SQUEEZE every dime we can out of people. I have always treated people like I want to be treated. During Holidays MOST parks here raise the rate you know supply and demand, we never have done that. Some times being fair is hard.

Before every thing went wireless we would let guests come to the office and plug into the phone jack for dial up and ask them to please limit to 15 minutes if at all possible, as we had one phone line. We had some sit on the coach for 4 hours, needless to say we had to stop sharing the line.

Thanks again, I might be back with more questions as no one knows the answers better than those that camp.

RLM
This is one of my few pet peeves about campgrounds. “Free” is only disguised as such by creative advertising or hidden fees. Those who think that they are getting free Wi-Fi at a camp ground are not educated consumers. It’s a cost of doing business and passed along to the consumer. I have absolutely no problem with that. It’s a business folks, they have to charge for amenities to stay in business. Complainers, wise up!!

With all due respect westernparkowner, some of us are not full of “hot air.” I don’t appreciate false advertising by a camp ground to get me to stay there. If you state internet access, then you should have the courtesy and honesty to let me know when it’s a fee based system. If you state big rig friendly, then your sites should be at least 65 feet long. I could go on, but you get the picture.

Now, can someone tell me why camp grounds have to fudge the facts, and RV’ers expect something for nothing??
Texasrvers
How about saying something like, "WiFi access included in site fee" or "Wifi included at no extra cost"? That way you're not saying it is free, but it does indicate there is no add on charge. Course now I've used 6 words to say what can be done in 2--Free WiFi. Actually it doesn't matter how you say it. Somebody sometime somewhere will think it should be worded differently.

And I think most people understand the concept of "free" anything. They know it is not truly free, that it is a part of the overall fee which has been set to cover all operating expenses and produce a profit. The term free simply means you don't pay for it separately.
Florida Native
QUOTE
What if a guest comes in and pays the higher rate but only uses the internet for 2 out of 5 days. MORE for me but we have never tried to SQUEEZE every dime we can out of people.




What about the guest who comes in and doesn’t use the sewer hookup at all? We monitor and manage the tanks and probably average dumping every 4 days or so. Some people use lots of power or water or hot tub. WiFi is no different. You have just got to think of the averages. I have probably not dumped in 70 % of the campgrounds we have used in 39 states. I didn’t ever ask for a refund or think I had been ripped off. When I pay $3.95 for internet service and it won’t work or works improperly I am PO’ed 100 % o the time. Think of WiFI as just another amenity and figure it into your price and they can use it if they want. I have also had free WiFi that I didn’t use.
DXSMac
QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ May 14 2009, 03:00 PM) *

What about the guest who comes in and doesn’t use the sewer hookup at all? We monitor and manage the tanks and probably average dumping every 4 days or so.


Wow. You dump every 4 days? You must have large holding tanks! Takes me awhile to fill the black tank, but I'm usually dumping the gray at least twice in a nights stay....... I started doing dishes in a rubbermaid tub and dumping that in the toilet so I can "even it out." Doing that, I can last two days before I have to dump.

Ok, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Back to discussing the WiFi question.

I use the WiFi a lot!

If I have to pay an additional charge for it, I don't buy it. If it's included, heck yes, I use it.

JJ
westernrvparkowner
QUOTE(RLM @ May 13 2009, 08:12 PM) *

This is one of my few pet peeves about campgrounds. “Free” is only disguised as such by creative advertising or hidden fees. Those who think that they are getting free Wi-Fi at a camp ground are not educated consumers. It’s a cost of doing business and passed along to the consumer. I have absolutely no problem with that. It’s a business folks, they have to charge for amenities to stay in business. Complainers, wise up!!

With all due respect westernparkowner, some of us are not full of “hot air.” I don’t appreciate false advertising by a camp ground to get me to stay there. If you state internet access, then you should have the courtesy and honesty to let me know when it’s a fee based system. If you state big rig friendly, then your sites should be at least 65 feet long. I could go on, but you get the picture.

Now, can someone tell me why camp grounds have to fudge the facts, and RV’ers expect something for nothing??

I stand by my statement that anyone who went to an RV park that advertised "WiFi available" and found out it was for a fee and then said they were going to file a "false advertising complaint" (I assume with the state attorney's office, that is the authority that in most states handles such complaints) is full of "hot air" The State Attorney's office would laugh it off. It is not false advertising, period, end of story. The Wifi was available. No where was it mentioned it was not available for free. Is my park "false advertising" because my advertising states 50 amp, pull thrus, wifi, cable tv, souvenirs, pet sitting, ice and rv supplies are available yet they are all not free. You can't come into my store, pick up a couple of hundred dollars worth of tee shirts and expect to take them for free because my advertising said they were "available". Nothing in my campground is free, it is either included in the site fee or available for an extra cost. When you pay the fee to stay, you get to use the WiFi, the cable, the electricity, the water the sewer and enjoy the great views. But make no mistake, none of those services are free.
You say campground owners fudge the facts, find me the law that states the site has to be 65 feet long to be considered a "big rig friendly site". It is a matter of opinion. I suggest if you want to know if the WiFi is a fee based system, or how long or wide a site is, ask. I don't know of a single RV park that doesn't have a telephone . If they lie to you, then it is time to get indignant.
DXSMac
Western, I agree with you, but sometimes it doesn't occur to people to "ask." If other parks have their WiFi free, and someone has never stayed in a park where it WASN'T free, and your park says "WiFi available" someone might "assume" (make an A** out of U and ME) that your WiFi was also free, and get mad when it isn't........

It doesn't occur to someone to ask until something happens to change someone's frame of reference.

JJ
RLM
Just so that you are aware I once owned my own business so I personally tend to appreciate more the position of the camp ground owner than the user when it comes to issues of this nature.

I’ll accept your statement - "No where was it mentioned it was not available for free” - as a learned lesson. From now on, since I can’t usually trust the advertisement, I’ll look for the word free or I will ask. Sincerely, I thank you for educating me.

As for the dimensions of a big rig friendly site, it would be the law of consumer demand and opinion. You did say that it was a matter of opinion, correct?

You also stated “But make no mistake, none of those services are free.” I think you just confirmed my position in the first paragraph of my original post…which by the way happens to side with you.
westernrvparkowner
QUOTE(RLM @ May 15 2009, 12:34 AM) *

Just so that you are aware I once owned my own business so I personally tend to appreciate more the position of the camp ground owner than the user when it comes to issues of this nature.

I’ll accept your statement - "No where was it mentioned it was not available for free” - as a learned lesson. From now on, since I can’t usually trust the advertisement, I’ll look for the word free or I will ask. Sincerely, I thank you for educating me.

As for the dimensions of a big rig friendly site, it would be the law of consumer demand and opinion. You did say that it was a matter of opinion, correct?

You also stated “But make no mistake, none of those services are free.” I think you just confirmed my position in the first paragraph of my original post…which by the way happens to side with you.

I also agree with you, a "big rig" site should generally be around 65 ft long (or longer) however, I can see some configurations that would allow a much shorter site (say 50 ft) that could be considered Big Rig Friendly. Say a site that is that long and has an adjacent area to park the tow vehicle. If that site was 40 feet wide, it is considerably larger than a 65 x 20 pull thru. I have encountered such sites in my travels (I have a 44' coach with 4 slides) and actually prefer the wider, shorter site if I am staying for a number of days. The longer site affords the luxury of not unhooking the tow car (if it is a pull thru, a back in is a different story.) So there are advantages to each site, yet I would consider each "big rig friendly" I mostly posted the comment because the original poster sounded concerned that she might actually be party to a lawsuit regarding false advertising because her "wifi available" was not free. I was hoping to set her a little bit at ease. And, as always, let me remind everyone, as a campground owner "I hate WiFi biggrin.gif "
gilda
deleted

pianotuna
Hi Gilda,

Once upon a time there was a phone company called "Sasktel". Some creep somewhere decided that land lines were just not convenient enough and the cell phone network was born.

Of course, every cell phone tower costs thousands of dollars to put up--so one doesn't wish to use any more than necessary. A survey was done. Sites were built (and fairly quickly too). The system was up and running.

EXCEPT when they did the survey the sun spot cycle was at an eleven year low. So now in rural areas where there are not an over abundance of towers cell phone service is quite "spotty" depending on where we are in the sunspot cycle.

Wifi is considerably lower power than a cell phone. When folks design the system they are out and about in good weather. Adequate signal strength is "good enough"--after all equipment costs are not particularly low. Then it rains and the system goes to **** in a hand basket.

Now that the "adequate" system is built. let's add 50 RV's. Oops--they all want to surf the net faster than greased lightening. Oops, the repeater antenna is not line of sight to the farthest RV spot in the park--so there isn't a signal. Oops the laptops in the third row can receive the signal from the repeater antenna--but they can't transmit back to it because the signal has to penetrate five vehicles walls, because the antenna "tower" is simply not high enough up in the air. Oops, there are 13 channels but because the frequencies are so close together really only 1,6, and 13 are viable. Oops again--everyone who comes into the campground jumps onto channel 6. Needless to say it is slow as molasses. You also have 51 transmitters each of which causes interference with the others.

Do the installers care? Nope. Do they even understand how a campground wifi system should designed? Nope.

I'm sure someone who is more well versed than I about this can come up with dozens more reasons why most campground wifi systems are less than pleasing to all concerned, particularly when the campground is full.

Gilda, no wonder you and Western hate wifi.

QUOTE(gilda @ May 15 2009, 11:55 AM) *

Boy..do I ever agree with you!!! Hate it!! If it wouldn't hurt business, I would get rid of it in a heartbeat. I've threatened to get rid of it to some who complain non stop. When you have a park that is filled to capacity, I don't care HOW good your wifi system is....It still has troublw getting through some huge rigs.

westernrvparkowner
Pianotuna, great post. That just about covers 20% of the problems with WiFi. The other 80% is operator error. Even the best wifi system doesn't work when the user hasn't plugged in the wifi card or turned on the wifi switch on the computer. What a joy it would be if they wanted to just "surf the net at light speed". Try streaming full length movies, using a videophone on a conference call over skype or vonage, or maybe they just needed to completely design and model a nuclear weapon. Of course, everyone must do this between 8 and 10 PM. I am seriously considering renaming my place "RV Park/Computer Technical Support"
Florida Native
QUOTE
but I'm usually dumping the gray at least twice in a nights stay.......



Wow, I can’t imagine. We boondock a lot and are used to not using too much water. We have 75 gallon gray and 50 gallon black (actually we call it the yellow tank, because we never do what make it black in it. Go elsewhere for that after a bad experience years ago.). We just got back from a 4 night trip with one night of boondocking and I dumped only this morning and was considering not doing it because of the huge rain. We have a dump site where we store the coach. Nether tank was full.


We just stayed 3 nights at a Campground in Dover, FL and it advertised WiFi Available. I knew what it meant and when I got there it, was Tenngo WiFi. $4.95/night. The was a McDonalds nearby and it was free for an hour with any purchase, but I couldn’t get it even with my antenna at the coach. I had a talk with the manager and they realized that they are competing with free WiFi and are wavering. I am not going to pay $4.95 except in rare instances. I am just too cheap. It was a Passport America campground also.
Galli
QUOTE(campNout @ May 12 2009, 12:22 AM) *

I just came across ed this site couple of days ago, and have really enjoyed reading all the posts.
I came looking for information on WiFi and have posted a few questions and have gotten some good answers. In reading posts about Camp Reviews I have gotten the feeling that most campers do not like to pay for wifi or wifi provided by a third party. I have been working to add wifi for 2 years, I wanted to install it my self with no charge to guests. I realized that I could not install antennas on top of all buildings in park or all the other gizmos needed to get a signal over the whole park. I just paid a deposit 1/2 of the fee to have a third party install. After reading all the posts I feel I have made a expensive error, but it is to late now to back out.

Questions are to help me serve my guests and make their stay as pleasant as possible.

Why don't campers like third party wifi (I will not be getting any of the profit) even thou I am paying for all the equipment, additional charges for higher speed and an IP address PLUS $10.00 a month to company to maintain the site.

Here is a quote that I copied from a post. "" I will claim "false advertising" if the RV Park says "We have wireless" only to find out that you have to sign up with a third party "" Can you help me with the Proper way to let guests know wifi is available to them. What should I place on my web site.??? Would it correct to say wifi provider by *******. I am confused about this.

I have read that the price most are willing to pay is $2.00 a day. I don't know if I can convince the ***company to go with $2.00 but might be able to get the rate down to $3.00.

Here are my options Our In season rate is $40.00 (our rate is the lowest in our area, other parks are $75.00 - $90.00) Hey if I charged $90.00 I could have FREE wifi. I have a Internet coupon for $3.00 off the nightly rate. Also give $3.00 for AARP, Military etc. I could discontinue all discounts and pay the $3.00 my self so the guest could have WiFi FREE. Do you think I should do this or keep the discount and let the guest pay for wifi if they want it. I feel that by doing away with the discount I am making the ones who have no interest in internet {afer all they are on vacation} pay for the ones who do. PLEASE help me out here.

We use to charge $2.00 for cable tv. We did this because the guests with satellite did not need or want cable and were able to save $2.00. THIS Did not work as when guests found out the cable was $2.00 NO ONE Wanted ctv, BUT when we would go around the park most were hooked up to ctv. When asked NICELY about it they would say OH WE ONLY WANTED To watch one program. We had no choice but to add the $2.00 to the rate and make the ctv FREE.

I read posts by a camp owner who told of all the time spent helping people get on line. I know this is true as even with ctv we are constantly having to take a tv to the site to prove the cable works. WE SPEND HOURS A WEEK SHOWING PEOPLE HOW TO PROGRAM THEIR SETS TO GET CABLE. Cable has been a NIGHTMARE and now another BEAST coming my way Internet.

Until my contract is up with said company I am stuck and hope some one here will help point me in the right direction. Free (not really) or Pay. I can't pay the ***company when a guests goes on line and give the discount so which one is the better way.

cool.gif Congratulations, from your words it appears that you are an honest and conscientious businessman, I agree with you, the promotion whichever forms it takes it may be misleading. ohmy.gif
It is several years that I am spending my winter months in Florida and at my first encounter with this place, I was somewhat upset since they were advertising that the Internet is available but it was not mentioned that the service was actually provided by a third party for about $ 29 a month (at least this was until last winter) and the service was/is somewhat unreliable; the club house in need of repair and was never done and other secondary things that were mentioned in the adds but often on repair/out of service.. etc..... sad.gif
Now and in my opinion, there are 3 types of campgrounds, the very cheap one in which every thing goes and I consider them as places to spend the night and leave next day; the middle budgets which are those that the majority of RVers are looking to spend a considerable time and the luxury one.
While the first one is already been defined , the second one is running on a very sharp line, namely, yes please the RVers but also make money for the owner/corporation and this type should be very clear in its promotion by advertising (i.e. Internet provided by third party at $....; boat available if closed to the water at $... ; cable TV or… etc..) e specify up front whether the service is provided free or against payment. wink.gif
It is still my own opinion that the responsibility of a owner/corporation is to provide a reasonable size lot for the rig, the hygienic services clean and efficient and to monitor the unrolling campers not to disturb the others. ph34r.gif
The third type of camp should be considered a luxury place where you pay an over average amount in the rent and because of that, the frills as cable, internet and local phone call should be free. smile.gif
Running a camp is just like running a business, you have to deliver what you promote in your adds, failing to keep up to your promises, campers will talk to each others and with the Internet and chats facilities it is the most powerful advertising or degrading for a given business.
Good luck
Tom
QUOTE(campNout @ May 13 2009, 05:17 PM) *
What if a guest comes in and pays the higher rate but only uses the internet for 2 out of 5 days.


I would be surprised if wifi was included in the site fee that people wouldn't use it every night (or every morning). The internet has become a virtual necessity. Don't worry, if you have wifi, people will use it!

As with other posters, just be as clear as possible about what your campground provides.
dog bone
just my opinion. if you want to advertise free wi fi put the cost in the site fee.
if you advertise wi fi available, the customer should know there is going to be a fee for it. at least ask if there is and find out how much.
i own a boat when i see a sign at a marina that states slips available i don't think there free. i go and ask how much.
i have looked a lot of reviews that put down the campground for the wi fi service. a little up front communication would probable eliminate this.
again just my opinion.
bob
westernrvparkowner
Just one quickie, a lot of comments mention "third party provider" for the internet service. Unless you are AL GORE and invented the internet, it is all third party. I don't think any campground owns an ISP and even Internet Service Providers use phone lines and satellite links etc. owned by others. Many campgrounds choose "visible" outside providers because they have no technical ability to provide the WiFi support, nor should they be expected to. Being able to run a data network was not a requirement to own a campground the last time I checked.
Texasrvers
Third party to me means you deal with the service provider directly. It goes something like this: You log on and then use your credit card to pay a fee. You usually have to set up your own username and password, and then you have access to the internet. Some "third party"companies that come to mind are Tengonet and Coachnet. I have not really used these so I may not have the info exactly right, but that is sort of how it goes.

I realize that almost, if not all, campgrounds use an internet company (third party) to provide the park's service. But I do not really consider it third party if I do not have to deal directly with that company to get service. If there is a fee I pay it to the park; they give me the info I need to get on--username, password--and if I'm lucky it all goes well. If not I go back to the park office, not the internet company, and the park employees try to help and/or fix the problem.

Anyway that is how I see the difference. It may not be technically correct, but there is a little bit of difference from my point of view.

Parkview
cool.gif Hi all,

I hope I can shed a little light on the 3rd party provider issue. We have a park in a rural area, and when we first opened in 2001 WIFI did not exist in RV Parks. A couple of years later the technology began to spread to RV Parks throughout the country, and we jumped on board excited to embrace this new paradigm. The first problem that we encountered was that in our area at that time the only high speed internet signal that we could receive was via satellite. Our rural phone cooperative did not provide DSL and there is no cable company serving our area. I solicited proposals from several different companies to set up the service for us and then provide the installation of equipment, service and tech support. Neither I nor anyone on our staff was expert enough in this field to design or administer such a program.

For about a five year period, we spent in excess of twelve thousand dollars in equipment, installation, service, tech support and monthly charges from Hughes Satellite for the incoming satellite signal. Our service worked great at times, not so good at times, and almost non existent at times. The sporadic service was due mainly to the weaknesses of a satellite based system. During this period we went through three different companies trying to overcome these technical difficulties caused by the inherent weakness of a satellite based system, the hilly topography and wooded nature of our park, and the varying degress of signal quality caused by the number, type and size of RVs parked in the park at any given time.

Finally, about two years ago, our local phone cooperative brought in fiber optic cable and DSL service. This, along with another $3,000 in upgrades in our equipment has at last given us an excellent system and rendered obsolete the two large satellite dishes that we had previously bought. We still use a 3rd party provider who did our full site survey and told what equipment we would need to fully cover the park, installed the equipment, and provides 24 hour technical support for us and for users of the service. We have had many or our customers tell that we now have the best WIFI they have ever had in an RV Park. We have a total of three separate directional antennas on top of our main building plus three omni directional repearters scattered throughout the park. The third party provider is able to remotely monitor our system and alerts us immediately if one of our repeaters or routers is not operating or needs rebooting. If one of customers is having difficulty in accessing the service, we give them a card containing the toll free tech support number, and the techs are happy to walk them through their setup issues (and it is almost always the customers' setup errors that cause their access problems).

Having this third party support is invaluable to us and our customers. There is no way our service or technical support could be what it is without such a third party provider.

As a side note. I have read some comments on this forum about certain of these providers whose service was not what was expected and the 3rd party provider is blamed. I can tell you from experience that the service that can be provided by such 3rd party is only as good as the incoming signal to the RV Park and the equipment that the RV Park is willing to pay for.

In summary, I am an RVer and an RV Park owner, not a WIFI company. To provide good WIFI to our customers, I hire a good WIFI company and buy the best equipment available, just as I hire an electrician to do any complex electrical work. Hanging a wire out the office window and calling it a WIFI system is a concept I do not comprehend.

Thanks again for letting me opine on this fantastic forum.

Doug
westernrvparkowner
QUOTE(Texasrvers @ Jun 11 2009, 11:10 AM) *

Third party to me means you deal with the service provider directly. It goes something like this: You log on and then use your credit card to pay a fee. You usually have to set up your own username and password, and then you have access to the internet. Some "third party"companies that come to mind are Tengonet and Coachnet. I have not really used these so I may not have the info exactly right, but that is sort of how it goes.

I realize that almost, if not all, campgrounds use an internet company (third party) to provide the park's service. But I do not really consider it third party if I do not have to deal directly with that company to get service. If there is a fee I pay it to the park; they give me the info I need to get on--username, password--and if I'm lucky it all goes well. If not I go back to the park office, not the internet company, and the park employees try to help and/or fix the problem.

Anyway that is how I see the difference. It may not be technically correct, but there is a little bit of difference from my point of view.
How would you view my situation. I provide passwords and usernames for the service (included with site rental). After connecting to my access points you launch your internet browser and are redirected to a sign in page. The sign in page has BOTH my campground name and the provider name. You choose camper login and put in the codes and you are on the internet. If you do not have codes (getting my feed while you are not a registered guest) you can purchase codes from the provider and use the service. I get a small percentage of the fees, but it happens rarely (about $2.00 per month). I chose this option because when I did not have a "pay to use" option, people would stop on the street and try to borrow codes from guests. At times there would be 5 or 6 cars parked along the road trying to use the free internet. Since it appears to non guests that the wifi is available for a fee they tend to just move on. You can deal directly with the company and get on the internet, but my guests deal with me and get on for no added costs. Is it a first party or a third party system? Does it really matter?
Galli
I just read a couple of statements provided by, I believe by park owners and I sympathize with them in trying to improve their facilities, this is a good way to attract people, however, the original issue was not based on having or not having internet facilities but to provide an honest disclosure regarding what’s offered within the camp fee and what is provided at an extra cost.
With respect to both articles published by camp-owners, I understand that they went out of their way to please the campers in their facility, however, the matter discussed here could be very well at an additional charge.
Like I mentioned in my previous message, I am spending good part of my Winters in Florida and I need to use the Internet while I am there, notwithstanding that, I am not expecting that the corporation owning the camp should absorb the cost for this service, however, since the campsite is promoting this facility, I expect the camp owner to be responsible for the level of service provided (I mean, if campers have reasonable complaints regarding the service too unreliable or too slow or too choppy or… etc.), a camp owner should bring up the matter with the internet provider and keep monitoring the service provided for reliability
What I am trying to say is that, yes the service is provided by a third party but, you as owner/corporation are advertising this addition in your facility, therefore, it is morally implied that you consider this service in accordance with your standard.
Now I am going to talk about a different subject but still in line with camp owner’s honesty in advertising and a campers’ reactions for not receiving what it was expected; I don’t mention the name of the camp because it would not be fair .
Two years ago, during the Summer time, it was reported that the club house of the campsite that I spend my winters there had been destroyed by a tornado and it will be rebuilt soon.
The same Winter that I went there for my 3 months staying and the club house was still in limbo and because of the no washroom facilities ware available closed by (except for the portable one that you find during the road construction) we were forced to used those at the other side of the camp, upon our protest, we were told that the matter would have been settled soon.
The winter went by, the club house was not rebuilt and we (campers) learned that there was not a tornado destroying the unit but it has been closed by the, lets call it, Florida safety organization because the place was corroded by termites.
Now and to make a long story short, I know for fact that, this camp did loose at least 30 or 40% of snow birds and unless they make up their act, this winter I am going to spend my $ 700 and + per month in a place more reliable.
I am mentioning this issue on this specific forum because I understand that it is read by camp owners and I hope they may learn that the honesty in business is the only way to have people coming back to your facility.
RLM
This topic has been very active for a month so it's obviously a hot button for both sides.

Perhaps there is a middle ground for some campground owners who don’t want to bear the expense of installing a campground wide system. We all know there are nationally know chain restaurants, bookstores, coffee shops, and the like that provide Wi-Fi service to customers. I would prefer to sit in the comfort of my RV, but if the campground had a decent comfortable place to sit and maybe drink a cup of coffee while I’m online, then I don’t have a problem with “coming to you” for the connection. We’ve all got laptops and a small walk to the lounge isn’t a major inconvenience. An office system with a decent DSL band width will accommodate several connections at once and be very cost effective. I’m now online at such a place. It’s got nice overstuffed chairs and sofas, several tables, and convenient electrical plugs. There’s free coffee and a wide screen TV. The best deal of all is that for the cost of a short walk, I didn’t have to pay the built in charge for “free” Wi-Fi.
westernrvparkowner
QUOTE(RLM @ Jun 11 2009, 04:37 PM) *

This topic has been very active for a month so it's obviously a hot button for both sides.

Perhaps there is a middle ground for some campground owners who don’t want to bear the expense of installing a campground wide system. We all know there are nationally know chain restaurants, bookstores, coffee shops, and the like that provide Wi-Fi service to customers. I would prefer to sit in the comfort of my RV, but if the campground had a decent comfortable place to sit and maybe drink a cup of coffee while I’m online, then I don’t have a problem with “coming to you” for the connection. We’ve all got laptops and a small walk to the lounge isn’t a major inconvenience. An office system with a decent DSL band width will accommodate several connections at once and be very cost effective. I’m now online at such a place. It’s got nice overstuffed chairs and sofas, several tables, and convenient electrical plugs. There’s free coffee and a wide screen TV. The best deal of all is that for the cost of a short walk, I didn’t have to pay the built in charge for “free” Wi-Fi.

Not a chance this would satisfy the vast majority of WiFi needy RVers. Wish it would.
Texasrvers
QUOTE(westernrvparkowner @ Jun 11 2009, 02:14 PM) *

How would you view my situation. SNIP. Is it a first party or a third party system? Does it really matter?


To answer your question (and without actually experiencing your system), it sounds more first party (which I realize it really isn't). I know you said that I could deal directly with the internet provider to get access, but I would probably follow the first scenario and deal with you, the park owner, to get my access codes. I just remember a few short years ago that some parks did not handle their internet service as most do now. When I would ask about internet access they would hand me a flier with information about a service provider. As mentioned before it was usually Tengonet or CoachConnect (I think I had the name wrong earlier). I had to log on, pay a fee with my credit card, and then I would get access. I just didn't prefer to handle it that way.

I understand I'm not entirely right in my thinking, but you yourself said, "my guests deal with me and get on for no added costs." That has a first party "feel" even if it is not. Truthfully, in this day and time it probably doesn't matter. I wasn't trying to argue; I was just trying to explain what third party meant to me.
westernrvparkowner
QUOTE(Texasrvers @ Jun 11 2009, 06:47 PM) *

To answer your question (and without actually experiencing your system), it sounds more first party (which I realize it really isn't). I know you said that I could deal directly with the internet provider to get access, but I would probably follow the first scenario and deal with you, the park owner, to get my access codes. I just remember a few short years ago that some parks did not handle their internet service as most do now. When I would ask about internet access they would hand me a flier with information about a service provider. As mentioned before it was usually Tengonet or CoachConnect (I think I had the name wrong earlier). I had to log on, pay a fee with my credit card, and then I would get access. I just didn't prefer to handle it that way.

I understand I'm not entirely right in my thinking, but you yourself said, "my guests deal with me and get on for no added costs." That has a first party "feel" even if it is not. Truthfully, in this day and time it probably doesn't matter. I wasn't trying to argue; I was just trying to explain what third party meant to me.
I almnost forgot to mention, as a park owner I hate Wifi laugh.gif
optomyst
QUOTE(westernrvparkowner @ May 13 2009, 05:50 PM) *

Wifi included in the site fees is the way to go. Contact your vendor and find out how much they will charge you to let your guests sign in at no charge. That being said, do not worry too much if you are unable to provide it for free. The guy that was going to claim "false advertising" and similar threats are all a lot of hot air. You wouldn't be expected to provide propane for free if you advertised "propane available". Don't worry about stuff like that. The biggest reason we include wifi in the fees is it improves customer satisfaction and reduces the complaints if the wifi is slower or has some problems. Most people don't feel right raising a ruckus about something they didn't directly pay for. A couple of dollars more for a site won't cause people to choose other parks and you may get a few new customers due to the WiFi



If you have 50 sites and you charge what some are charging (3.95/day), that gives you roughly $200 per day or $6000. per month. That would cover a lot more than your WiFi provider. That's pretty steep.
RLM
QUOTE(westernrvparkowner @ Jun 11 2009, 03:41 PM) *

Not a chance this would satisfy the vast majority of WiFi needy RVers. Wish it would.


It works for Starbucks and the like, but I'll defer to your campground expertise on the needy Rvers.

I'm probably giving away a million dollar idea, but I wonder if there would be a way to provide broad band connections with the cable tv on individual sites. It's routinely done in houses.
gilda
deleted

DXSMac
Gilda, tell people to shut off their computers when they are not using the internet. On a laptop, you can just shut the lid to go to "sleep" mode. This disconnects from the WiFi, and will reconnect when you open the lid. It's automatic.

When you are 100% full, you want to make sure people aren't connected when they aren't using it.

JJ
westernrvparkowner
QUOTE(DXSMac @ Jun 12 2009, 11:13 AM) *

Gilda, tell people to shut off their computers when they are not using the internet. On a laptop, you can just shut the lid to go to "sleep" mode. This disconnects from the WiFi, and will reconnect when you open the lid. It's automatic.

When you are 100% full, you want to make sure people aren't connected when they aren't using it.

JJ
People will not respect a request to turn off their computers. That is just a fact. Also, you have to do more than just turn off the computer, you must actually log off the system due to the "leasing of space" that occurs within a router. Whenever someone logs into a router a certain amount of bandwidth is assigned to that user, it doesn't necessarily end when a user turns off the computer. Most routers license for either a 12 or a 24 hour period, this prevents the system from continually bumping off in the middle of internet session. Being what appears to be a casual user, you can not believe how invested some people are in their internet. To some people, turning off their internet is akin to turning off their heart/lung machine. It would literally kill them.


QUOTE(RLM @ Jun 12 2009, 10:13 AM) *

It works for Starbucks and the like, but I'll defer to your campground expertise on the needy Rvers.

I'm probably giving away a million dollar idea, but I wonder if there would be a way to provide broad band connections with the cable tv on individual sites. It's routinely done in houses.

You need to have a modem at each contact point (home) on a cable internet. You also need to have jacks that would support either an ethernet or USB connection. RVs do not have ethernet or USB connections outside. USB cable is good for only about 6 feet of transmission without amplification and who has 30 or more feet of ethernet cable on their RV and then want to run it through the window or the door to their laptop and then have the laptop tethered to a cable. It would supply great service, but no way would it be customer friendly enough for today's RVers.
gilda
deleted

westernrvparkowner
QUOTE(optomyst @ Jun 12 2009, 10:13 AM) *

If you have 50 sites and you charge what some are charging (3.95/day), that gives you roughly $200 per day or $6000. per month. That would cover a lot more than your WiFi provider. That's pretty steep.
If I could raise my prices $3.95 a day, you can bet I would. The truth is, my pricing is what I can charge, anything I add, costs me money. I wish people would pay more, but that is wishfull thinking. The best a campground could hope for by adding Wifi would be around $1.00 per day and sites are not 100% full everyday. Also, costs for wifi greatly exceed the monthly service costs. Equipment, time spent on technical support etc. far exceeds any monthly service fee. I have posted several times regarding WiFi costs and it exceeds several thousand dollars per month when spread only over the months we are open. Any park owner will tell you it is the biggest source of complaints on their campground. I can't wait for it to go the way of the 8 track tape.
Parkview
WIFI is not profitable for an RV Park, and I see no way that it will ever be. I have spent over $14,000 out of pocket in the last 7 years just for equipment and installation. This does not include the monthly ongoing fees for DSL service from my phone company ($160.00/mo., previously $200.00/mo. for satellite signal through Hughes net). The only reason for an RV Park to offer WIFI is to attract customers who would go somewhere else if we didn't have WIFI, but it will never be cash flow positive even if we charged what the previous poster said.

Only about 30% of our customers use the WIFI (Less than that in the Summer). If we raised the rate $4.95/day as the previous poster suggested, we would lose more business than we do by using a third party provider to provide a very high quality service to those that wish to use it for a fee and keeping our rates as low as possible for the 70% that do not use it. With the third party provider we receive 30% of what they receive for providing the service. The last quarter, I received approx. $650 in commissions vs. $480.00 for the ongoing monthly charges for the DSL signal from the phone company, a "profit" of $170.00 over the three month period. I am 62 years old - you can do the math as to whether I will live long enough to recoop my $14,000 outlay for equipment and and installation over the rest of my lifetime at $170/quarter.

I realize that some of you may not beleive my 30% usage figure, because from reading the posts on this site it would seem that everyone uses a computer and WIFI while they are travelling. Obviously, 100% of the people on this site use their computers, but it is equally obvious that 100% of non-computer users who travel do not post on this site. Also, with a quality provider, I do not have to worry about tech support 24 hours a day. As a retiree from a previous career, I have no intention of getting up in the middle if the night to answer a WIFI problem for a late night overseas stock trader (yes we have them - and they appreciate the 24 hr. tech support).

Doug
Galli
QUOTE(Parkview @ Jun 12 2009, 12:24 PM) *

WIFI is not profitable for an RV Park, and I see no way that it will ever be. I have spent over $14,000 out of pocket in the last 7 years just for equipment and installation. This does not include the monthly ongoing fees for DSL service from my phone company ($160.00/mo., previously $200.00/mo. for satellite signal through Hughes net). The only reason for an RV Park to offer WIFI is to attract customers who would go somewhere else if we didn't have WIFI, but it will never be cash flow positive even if we charged what the previous poster said.

Only about 30% of our customers use the WIFI (Less than that in the Summer). If we raised the rate $4.95/day as the previous poster suggested, we would lose more business than we do by using a third party provider to provide a very high quality service to those that wish to use it for a fee and keeping our rates as low as possible for the 70% that do not use it. With the third party provider we receive 30% of what they receive for providing the service. The last quarter, I received approx. $650 in commissions vs. $480.00 for the ongoing monthly charges for the DSL signal from the phone company, a "profit" of $170.00 over the three month period. I am 62 years old - you can do the math as to whether I will live long enough to recoop my $14,000 outlay for equipment and and installation over the rest of my lifetime at $170/quarter.

I realize that some of you may not beleive my 30% usage figure, because from reading the posts on this site it would seem that everyone uses a computer and WIFI while they are travelling. Obviously, 100% of the people on this site use their computers, but it is equally obvious that 100% of non-computer users who travel do not post on this site. Also, with a quality provider, I do not have to worry about tech support 24 hours a day. As a retiree from a previous career, I have no intention of getting up in the middle if the night to answer a WIFI problem for a late night overseas stock trader (yes we have them - and they appreciate the 24 hr. tech support).

Doug

Interesting your statement and I have to agree with you that only a percentage of campers use the computer but this service is becoming almost a necessity, more and more, every years that goes by. wink.gif
In my specific, case the internet service has almost replaced the telephone; it is true that I am retired but I still love to keep monitoring, as you say, the stock market, many of us have children, friends etc.. away and feel comfortable in keeping in touch with them; furthermore, with the today’s technology we can make an audio/visual contact all over the world at not extra expense by using the Internet. smile.gif
In conclusion, yes, I would prefer receiving the HIfI to my trailer but if not available, this would not discourage me to book my winter staying in a campsite where the facility is located in a specific room of the camp (provided that the place is not miles away). cool.gif
I have to be honest with you, if I have to choose between two campsites, one with internet facility and the other not, I will choose the one with the service.
Now dealing with the other part of the medal, I see your point as camp owners, the service might be a nuisance but in a non to distant future, this issue will become part of the required service for campsites and in my opinion, it will be almost important like a water and sewage at the trailer’s side and failure to prepare yourself for the coming future it might loose your competitive advantage versus the other camp across the road.
Texasrvers
I am again stepping into a topic about which I am "challenged", so you can laugh if this is really stupid. It occurred to me that before Wi-Fi and cell phones there were a lot of parks that had phone connections at their utility pedestals. Likewise most RV's had a phone jack installed inside. The idea was that you could get phone service right in your RV. We even carried a land line type phone with us the first few years we traveled. Usually the phone hook up was for a separate fee. We may have used this service once when it was free, but I can see that (before cell phones) this would be a convenient service for full timers or snowbirds who stayed in one place for a long time.

Now here's the stupid question. Why can't parks add phone lines (or use the existing ones) to the utility box and then provide DSL service? I do not begin to know the ins and outs of what that would involve or if it is feasible, but if it were possible it would provide internet service right at each RV and might eliminate some of the problems (weak signal) associated with Wi-Fi--although I am sure DSL has its own unique set of problems which may cause you just as many new headaches.

Ok, I'm ready to hear why this won't work. I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just assuming all of you are much more knowledgeable about this than I am, and if it would work you would already be doing it.
westernrvparkowner
QUOTE(Texasrvers @ Jun 12 2009, 08:23 PM) *

I am again stepping into a topic about which I am "challenged", so you can laugh if this is really stupid. It occurred to me that before Wi-Fi and cell phones there were a lot of parks that had phone connections at their utility pedestals. Likewise most RV's had a phone jack installed inside. The idea was that you could get phone service right in your RV. Usually the phone hook up was for a separate fee. We may have used this service once when it was free, but I can see that (before cell phones) this would be a convenient service for full timers or snowbirds who stayed in one place for a long time.

Now here's the stupid question. Why can't parks add phone lines (or use the existing ones) to the utility box and then provide DSL service? I do not begin to know the ins and outs of what that would involve or if it is feasible, but if it were possible it would provide internet service right at each RV and might eliminate some of the problems (weak signal) associated with Wi-Fi--although I am sure DSL has its own unique set of problems which may cause you just as many new headaches.

Ok, I'm ready to hear why this won't work. I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just assuming all of you are much more knowledgeable about this than I am, and if it would work you would already be doing it.
I know that most parks do not have phone lines throughout the campground, mine included. Also, DSL service requires a modem, so RVs without the modem would be out of luck (I don't know if all DSL modems are universally compatible). Finally, I am reasonably sure the phone company would charge for each line (you couldn't have a single phone line serve 100 connections) and at $50.00 or so for each line per month it would be cost prohibitive (100 sites x $50.00 x 12 months = $60,000 per year).
Texasrvers
OK........., I knew there had to be some reason(s). Thanks.
DXSMac
Beg to differ! Gilgal Oasis RV Park in Sequim, WA has DSL service. You have to pay $20 refundable deposit, they give you a cable, you hook it up. Worked good, except I had to run the cable through my window......

JJ
westernrvparkowner
QUOTE(DXSMac @ Jun 13 2009, 09:57 AM) *

Beg to differ! Gilgal Oasis RV Park in Sequim, WA has DSL service. You have to pay $20 refundable deposit, they give you a cable, you hook it up. Worked good, except I had to run the cable through my window......

JJ
Don't quite know what you are differing about. It does take a special connection to connect. Just because this park chose to have those hookups, doesn't mean that it would be practical for other parks. I noticed this is a very small park within a town. That would imply a relatively small area to cover with the wiring. Again, as I mentioned previously, tethering a computer to a cable doesn't work for many guests. What if there were two or 4 computers in the RV that needed to be connected? Was there 4 plugs available at the site if necessary? Finally, the wiring for the DSL was in place, as I stated, most RV parks do not have telephone lines run to all the RV sites. so the installation expenses would be very high. Again, I have no idea if it would be feasible from the phone company point of view. I do know they would require multiple services, you can only run so many connections per phone line. It is not even an option where I am since DSL is not available.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.