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NorthernIllinoisPlumber
Something like this does not worry me in the least. The crooks always had the firearms, looking for an opportunity to commit crimes. Now the law abiding citizen is able to carry.

Crime or not, I always wondered what someone was supposed to do in the event of a bear attack...call 911?

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=360792
Florida Native
A lots of us (including me) have been keeping firearms in our coaches for many years and no not throw them away when going into a national park. I carry a Kel-Tec 380 Auto in my truck and a Mossberg 500 short barrel pistol grip 12 gauge in my coach. They are out of sight but available. I have seen surveys indicating that about half of the RV'ers do similarly. I have a concealed carry permit that is good in 30 states. I don't flash them around and very rarely actually carry the weapons. I have he weaons wjere they are quickly available.
kcmoedoe
QUOTE(NorthernIllinoisPlumber @ Feb 22 2010, 09:10 PM) *

Something like this does not worry me in the least. The crooks always had the firearms, looking for an opportunity to commit crimes. Now the law abiding citizen is able to carry.

Crime or not, I always wondered what someone was supposed to do in the event of a bear attack...call 911?

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=360792

If you are carrying a handgun and are attacked by a bear, I am betting on the bear. Anything less than a 44 magnum will not even faze an enraged grizzly. Even with a hand cannon, the odds of hitting an 800 lb bear in a vital area is almost nil. Bears are all fat, bone and muscle. Hit any of those items and you will only make him madder. Even a direct hit in the heart will not stop a bear moving at 40 miles an hour directly towards you. It is not like on TV, they do not stand up, raise their arms and roar before charging. They just accelerate like a formula one racecar. What carrying a firearm will do is make it much more dangerous to hike the back country of Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Glacier and the like. Someone else on the trail will hear you snapping twigs, think you are a bear and shoot you out of irrational fear. It is an ill conceived ruling that is being pushed for a greater agenda. It will not make you safer in a National Park, but it does tweak the gun control activists in a very public way which is why gun proponents pushed so hard.
rgatijnet
I'm not too concerned about a bear attack. They are pretty rare. What is not rare is the growing number of murders and assaults in our National Parks. There has also been an increase in gang activity within the parks. All it takes is a simple search on the internet and you can see the increase in crime within the parks.
Those of you that like to travel with the Summer crowds may not feel the need to arm yourself however those that travel during the Winter, when crowds and Rangers are scarce, may want to carry your own protection. To me it is no different than carrying a spare tire. I hope I never have to use it, but if I do, it is available. I received my firearm training in the military and I feel that anyone that considers carrying a weapon get professional training to understand the safety aspects of your choice.
pianotuna
Hi,

The new rule makes me feel considerably less safe. I'm very disappointed.
rgatijnet
From the article:
The National Park Service said there were 3,760 reported major crimes, including five homicides and 37 rapes, in 2008, the most recent year for which data was available.

This is an appalling statistic. I guess we will see in a few years whether this new rule has lowered, or increased, the amount of crime on our National Parks.
RLM
QUOTE(pianotuna @ Feb 23 2010, 07:36 AM) *

The new rule makes me feel considerably less safe. I'm very disappointed.


I truly respect your opinion and concern, but I would ask if you have been feeling safer in a National Park or a US Forest Park?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having volunteered in both, I know that Federal parks do not have a gun ban while National parks did. Now they are on the same page law abiding citizens can go back to observing the state laws that pertain to those facilities.

Contrary to some anti-gun advocates opinions, not all gun owners are carrying. Federal and state laws provide for, as it should be and as rgatijnet stated, ďyour choiceĒ to have a handgun whether or not you carry it on your person. My choice is to also have fire extinguishers in my home, RV, and autos. They too are a common sense safeguard and, like any rational person, I hope never have to use them either.

Iíll echo the opinion that proper professional training and obtaining the proper permit is important. It is paramount to gun safety and it will educate about the differences in state laws so that one can be on the legal side of them. And while Iím on the pulpit, if you own any type firearm, whether they are locked up or not, please teach the kids about gun safety. They donít know to avoid danger -in any form - unless they are taught.



nedmtnman
The National Park Service said there were 3,760 reported major crimes, including five homicides and 37 rapes, in 2008, the most recent year for which data was available. The agency does not note which crimes involve firearms. Crime is down across the system's parks, according to park service spokesman David Barna.

National parks hosted about 275 million visitors in 2008, the agency said.

Out of 275 million visitors you are going to have some crime. That being said and having lived in the Colorado Rocky Mountains above 8000 feet for 23 years I can tell you that all gun owners are not all there. In the Crystal River Valley near Carbondale Co the ranchers paint COW on their cows and Horse on the horses with daglo orange paint during hunting season. They tie surveyors tape to the manes and tail and still get some animals killed each year. I had a friend who owned a meat processing plant near Rifle Co. and you should have heard the stories he told. On guy brought in a mule that he had been driving around town with it draped over the hood of his truck all day. My friend asked him what he wanted to do with it and the guy said process it. My friend asked him what he thought that was and he replied a mule deer. My friend told him to go find out who owned the mule and pay him for it. Guns are only as safe as the person using them.
BJMA
The only persons that a gun ban effects is the LEGAL user.

The person, bent on illegal activity, will not be effected by a gun ban.

Politicans are famous for calling for a "level playing field", well, to allow persons that have passed the requirements of thier home state or the state where the park is located, to be issued a carry permit, are doing just that, making the playing field level.

I am not so concerened about an 800 pound bear, but I am concerned about the 200 pound criminal.



QUOTE(pianotuna @ Feb 23 2010, 10:36 AM) *

Hi,

The new rule makes me feel considerably less safe. I'm very disappointed.

Florida Native
I think the simple truth is that the new law does not change much. People who had been carrying firearms in their vehicle wil continue to do so. As far as carrying them on your person, there we will be a small percentage of folks doing that in public areas, but not too many. There will be a higher percentage of people carrying in the back woods. The crooks who carried before will continue to, but now will be moe afraid somebody will shoot back. I read on one forum where a woman said she was now afraid to go to a national park. Give me a break. Some of the places we go to, i do feel safer with a pistol in the truck. The chances of me actually have to use it are extremely rare. Reminds me, I need to get to the range before our May trip.
abbygolden
Having spent 23+ years in the military and having used a weapon on numerous occasions, I'm reasonably familiar with the use of guns for self-defense. That being said, I disagree with "civilians" carring weapons. I know all the arguments for carrying and am smart enough to realize that my opinion won't change anyone's mind who is convinced they need a weapon. Nor will I ever rail against carrying for the same reason - it's like peeing against the wind. To those who have had the training, good for you. For those who haven't, you are the one's who scare me. Your saber rattling could go too far and that, combined with testosterone is dangerous. I understand this is not a perfect world, but I'm opposed to civilians owning weapons in most cases and against them carrying in almost every case, other than being used for hunting. And yes, I do own a weapon myself.
rgatijnet
QUOTE(abbygolden @ Feb 24 2010, 10:57 AM) *

Having spent 23+ years in the military and having used a weapon on numerous occasions, I'm reasonably familiar with the use of guns for self-defense. That being said, I disagree with "civilians" carring weapons. I know all the arguments for carrying and am smart enough to realize that my opinion won't change anyone's mind who is convinced they need a weapon. Nor will I ever rail against carrying for the same reason - it's like peeing against the wind. To those who have had the training, good for you. For those who haven't, you are the one's who scare me. Your saber rattling could go too far and that, combined with testosterone is dangerous. I understand this is not a perfect world, but I'm opposed to civilians owning weapons in most cases and against them carrying in almost every case, other than being used for hunting. And yes, I do own a weapon myself.


Sorry, but after my military enlistment I became a civilian. biggrin.gif

BJMA

an unarmed civilian is a SUBJECT.

QUOTE(abbygolden @ Feb 24 2010, 10:57 AM) *

Having spent 23+ years in the military and having used a weapon on numerous occasions, I'm reasonably familiar with the use of guns for self-defense. That being said, I disagree with "civilians" carring weapons. I know all the arguments for carrying and am smart enough to realize that my opinion won't change anyone's mind who is convinced they need a weapon. Nor will I ever rail against carrying for the same reason - it's like peeing against the wind. To those who have had the training, good for you. For those who haven't, you are the one's who scare me. Your saber rattling could go too far and that, combined with testosterone is dangerous. I understand this is not a perfect world, but I'm opposed to civilians owning weapons in most cases and against them carrying in almost every case, other than being used for hunting. And yes, I do own a weapon myself.

NorthernIllinoisPlumber
QUOTE(rgatijnet @ Feb 25 2010, 09:06 PM) *

Sorry, but after my military enlistment I became a civilian. biggrin.gif



Me too!!
abbygolden
QUOTE(NorthernIllinoisPlumber @ Feb 25 2010, 10:28 PM) *

Me too!!


Me, too, but I had the training to know how and when to handle guns. However, that's not my issue. My issue is that there are far too many people who feel that if they own a gun, it makes them invincible. It reminds me of the internet bully who always has the testosterone level too high and will hide behind his unalienable right to bear arms. We all have that right. It's just that there are many who abuse it. Again, however, I realize that my opinion runs counter to those who have responded to the OP. It's not a subject that I can change opinions, nor will I try.
Butch
QUOTE(NorthernIllinoisPlumber @ Feb 25 2010, 11:28 PM) *

Me too!!






Me three!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lonesoldier
The people that frighten me is tthe ones that carry a weapon/gun for defense and have no idea when or what they should do with it in a confrontation. The weapon itself is not intimidation enough to stop someone that is intent on harming you. It is a weapon for them to use against you if you hesitate, or present yourself in a manner that shows you have no idea what you are doing.
I have no problem with anyone carrying a weapon anywhere, IF it doesn't make them feel invincible, and they are the badest thing around. Presentation of confidence and being aware of your surroundings, is the best defense you will ever have.
If this is your situation or similar and response, carry a gun, if not don't carry.

TRUE STORY FROM...
"THE HOUSTON HERALD NEWSPAPER"
IN HOUSTON , TEXAS
MARCH 5th, 2009
~
Last Thursday Night Around Midnight, A Woman From Houston , Texas Was Arrested,
Jailed, And Charged With Manslaughter For Shooting A Man 6 Times In The Back
As He Was Running Away With Her Purse. ~


The Following Monday Morning,
The Woman Was Called In Front Of The Arraignment Judge, Sworn In,
And Asked To Explain Her Actions.
The Woman Replied, "I Was Standing At The Corner Bus Stop
For About 15 Minutes, Waiting For The Bus To Take Me Home After Work.
I Am A Waitress At A Local Cafe...
I Was There Alone, So I Had My Right Hand On My Pistol,
That Was In My Purse, That Was Hung Over My Left Shoulder.


All Of A Sudden I Was Being Spun Around Hard To My Left.
As I Caught My Balance, I Saw A Man
Running Away From Me With My Purse.
I Looked Down At My Right Hand And I Saw That My Fingers Were Wrapped Tightly
Around My Pistol. The Next Thing I Remember Is Saying Out Loud,
"No Way Punk! Your Not Stealing My Pay Check And Tips."
~ I Raised My Right Hand, Pointed My Pistol
At The Man Running Away From Me With My Purse,
And Squeezed The Trigger Of My Pistol 6 Times!
~
When Asked By The Arraignment Judge,
"Why Did You Shoot The Man 6 Times?
~
The Woman Replied Under Oath,


"Because, When I Pulled The Trigger The 7th Time, It Only Went Click."
~
The Woman Was Acquitted Of All Charges. She Was Back At Work, At The Cafe, The Next Day!



Now that's Gun Control.....


Wadcutter
Nice story but let's stick with facts. Totally BS. These kinds of stories don't help either side and just show how gullible people are. How do I know this is a BS story? Anyone who has been involved in the criminal justice system (LEOs, attorneys, etc) will quickly pick up the points that prove the story was BS.
"The Following Monday Morning, The Woman Was Called In Front Of The Arraignment Judge, Sworn In, And Asked To Explain Her Actions. "
At arraignment there is nothing about the defendant explaining their actions. That's not what arraignment is. In fact, the defendant doesn't say anything about their actions. It's the time for the defendant to hear the charges against them.

"When Asked By The Arraignment Judge,
Why Did You Shoot The Man 6 Times? "
No judge is going to ask any defendant anything. That's not the judge's role at either arraignment or trial. Judges don't question the defendant. That's the job of the prosecutor and defendant's attorney. Totally BS.
Another reason it's BS...
"The Woman Was Acquitted Of All Charges. She Was Back At Work, At The Cafe, The Next Day!"
Arraignment has nothing to do with the acquittal. Arraignment is not the trial. Arraignment is when the defendant hears the formal charges against them. Evidence is not presented, witnesses do not testify, judges do not make rulings. It's about being arraigned on the charges.
Another reason it's BS? That story has been around for at least 40 years.
abbygolden
As I, and obviously others have done, Googled for the March 5, 2009 article in the Houstoin Herald, and it was immediately obvious that there was no such article, at least for that day. I, too, believe I've seen variants of this "article" before in other places at other times years ago. Perhaps you got the date wrong?
Texasrvers
Snopes claims it's false.
Lonesoldier
The purpose of the story was to make a point. If you carry know when and how to use it and use it for the purpose you are carrying it, as the one in the story did.
Who is snopes, how do you know their information is "just the facts". I am sure they post nothing but the truth. Where do they get their information? dry.gif dry.gif dry.gif
John Blue
To get hit six times in the back with any type of hand gun would be a trick to see. I have used guns for 60 plus years now and do not see how anyone could stand up and take six shots to the back. Did this wild story say she shot the last five shots as he was face down on the street. I doubt it. Good way to spent a long time in jail if you did this act. What is cost to replace a paycheck and handbag? No court system would overlook this act or let it go.
Florida Native
When in high school, a bunch of us boys made the mistake of going back to the same watermelon patch two nights and a row and I got shot in the back with birdshot from a shotgun. It hurt a lot but we didnít get any medical attention. A lots different than getting shot with a pistol. In training my wife to fire my 380 Auto, it is amazing how inaccurate a new shooter can be. The adrenalin flowing makes things worse. In our area Central Florida, a homeowner was not charged in shooting and killing an intruder in his yard who came to rob him. (see link).


My Webpage
Texasrvers
Snopes.com is a searchable internet reference source for urban legends, folklore, myths, email hoaxes, rumors, and misinformation. As with anything on the internet I am sure that not all of their information is accurate, but I think they generally do a good job debunking the scams that are out there. There are several other sources for verifying information (urbanlegends.about.com, truthorfiction.com, scambusters.org/legends.html), but Snopes is a good place to start.

I understand the first part of your post, and I agree 100% that anyone who choses to carry a hand gun should definitely be trained to know how to use it correctly. I just don't think the story you used illustrates that idea. Sorry, that's just my opinion.

Lonesoldier
I bow out not realizing this would be taken so negatively. Should have known there will always be some that will not see anyone else point.
I will be gone permanently from these forums.
NorthernIllinoisPlumber
I thought it was supposed to be a joke...
Wadcutter
I thought he was just trying to impress others about how much he knew but he just ended up embarrassing himself. His anecdote sure wasn't supportive of whatever side a person wanted to take. There are plenty of truthful incidents that could be reported without resorting to something made up and completely bogus.
BJMA
I don't know until it happens, what I would do if confronted. I just know that if I am, I rather be armed than unarmed.

I do know this; a bunch of years ago, when I owned my own pay phones and collected and serviced pay phones for a couple other companies, I carried.

Pay phones were never in the good part of town, the best phones that had to be collected 3 times a week (each phone held $150.00 in coin) and each location had 2, 3, or 4 phones. The first time I collected, I drew a crowd... I guess they wanted to see what I would do, the next time, this time with the black grips of a pistol very visable, NO ONE came to see what I was doing. Another time, while sitting my my truck, I had a couple people try to open my doors, they were introduced to Misters Smith & Wesson. The muzzle end must have looked 2 feet wide to them, cause they turned and ran and I never saw them again.

Back then Ohio did not have a carry permit, we had a George Voinovich who was anti personal protection. We also had a defense, called the "prudent man defense". The idea was if you felt that in your normal course of business, you felt the need to be armed, you would have a valid defense. Of course, this would not prevent you from being arrested, having your firearm taken, have to defend yourself, sue to get your gun back.

We (God knows why) sent Voinovich to Washington, well at least we got him OUT of Ohio, and we got a carry permit. The bad thing, the preudent man defense went away, so that meant that Ohio was able to extort more money out of a citizen to be able to protect ones self.

rgatijnet
Carrying a weapon is a huge responsibility, ALMOST as huge as being able to drive a multi-ton vehicle down the highway without killing anyone else. Personally, I feel safer being around people that have gone thru the necessary training and have obtained their carry permit than sharing the highways with a lot of people that have stepped out of their family sedan and into a 40' motor home with no requirements to have any special driver training or testing. A person only has to look at the thousands of highway deaths each year to see where the real risk is in our lives as we enjoy our RV hobby.
The greater risk in our National Parks is not from someone that is carrying a concealed weapon, it comes from your fellow travelers that are behind the wheel. I believe each year that there are upwards of 300 people killed in our National Parks from accidents ranging from traffic accidents to drownings, to someone just doing something stupid.
I guaranty that many of you, that now say you feel less safe in our National Parks, just don't realize how often you have been around people that are carrying a concealed weapon as you explore this great country. Those of us that do carry don't have a red flag to alert strangers. The weapon is hidden and will remain hidden, just like our spare tire, with the hopes that we will never need it to protect our loved ones, or maybe even protect a total stranger, if things go bad.
Relax and enjoy your adventure and be careful on the highways. That is where the greater danger lies.
Jerry S
I usually try to avoid getting involved in discussions on this topic because they, as others have noted, seldom change anyone's opinion and can tend to get very volatile. Using the much maligned "Houston woman" story as a starting point, I'd like to ask a question. For the sake of argument, let's assume the basic set up for the story is true - woman working a job gets off late and has to take public transportation home in a big city. This is a regular scenario for miillions of people in this country. I certainly do not deny that this can be a precarious situation. These folks might have a legitmate argument for routinely being armed for their protection. My question: How many folks on this forum are in this type of potentially dangerous situation on a daily basis?
rgatijnet
QUOTE(Jerry S. @ Mar 2 2010, 12:20 AM) *

How many folks on this forum are in this type of potentially dangerous situation on a daily basis?


That is a good question and I guess the best answer is that any of us, with a motor home, could potentially get into a dangerous situation at any time. According to our state troopers, motor homes are a target of many criminals, especially if they are broken down at the side of the road. Any criminal, with a lick of sense, knows that as opposed to an automobile, a motor home will definitely have credit cards, cash, cameras, and maybe several other things of value. Since none of us can predict when we will beak down, and where, and since none of us can predict who we will be parked next to at the next rest center, I have decided that it is better to plan for the very REMOTE possibility that something could go bad, rather than to be unprepared all of the time. My life and my wife's life are too important to ignore the possibility that sometimes bad things happen to good people.
A young tourist lost his life at a rest center because some criminal decided that he wanted to rob him. Who knows if the criminal would have left with just the man's money? Once the criminal realizes you have seen him, you become a witness. Will he eliminate all witnesses? Who knows?
For those that do not feel comfortable carrying a weapon, there is ONLY once answer, DO NOT carry one. I would never try to convince everyone to carry a deadly weapon.
For those with the proper training, that they keep current, I hope we never have to use our weapon just like I hoped I would never have to use my emergency training as a pilot.
KentuckyCampin
I retired from the Army with 20 years of service. I have been to Iraq twice. I grew up around guns all of my life and am an avid hunter. The only thing that scares me worse than a person carrying a gun without any real training/experience, is the individual who wants to take away my gun rights because they are afraid of guns. Dont be afraid of guns, be afraid of the criminals who would use them. Persecute them with stiffer penalties and laws, such as the death penalty for those crimes committed with a weapon that results in the death of anyone. And Im not talking just guns. Any thing used to kill a person is considered a weapon, a shovel, hammer, crowbar, knife etc.

How many people die every year because of DUI's??? Lots. Have we banned alcohol?? Nope. Gotten stiffer on the perps?? Nope. But yet the same people you see in the local paper every week keep coming up on the list for DUI's. 2nd, 3rd and 4th offenders.

My point is, guns dont kill people, people kill people. If a criminal wants to kill someone or commit a crime and guns arent available, he/she will use something else!

I am a law abiding citizen with a carry concealed permit. You will never know I have a carry conceal, as I dont flash my weapon. I dont carry for any macho reason. I carry because I dont trust people. To me, its like owning a 4X4 truck (which I do biggrin.gif ). Its better to have it and never need it, than to not have it and need it.

My father worked for law enforcement for 12 years, and I used to go out on call with him. You always saw the same people getting into trouble, and always the criminal minded. Criminals will always be criminals, and the law abiding citizens are just that. I had to get a background check to get my permit, and the permit can be revoked if I were to abuse it or get into trouble. Therefore, I am a law abiding citizen, and I give to my community. I am active with the Boyscouts. I am a normal American citizen, not some crazy person carrying guns.

I just dont get why someone would say "Now I feel less safe knowing people can legally carry in parks now." To me that is just silly. I will tell you, I dont feel any different, and I hope people exercise their rights to carry. The only thing is, I hope that people will use good judgment and not mix alcohol with guns. That is not a good mixture, kind of like, drinking and driving!!!

The knee jerk response to this new law by those anti-gun activists just drives me nuts. I dont get them. Just like the animal rights activists that have gone to the extreme. I personally think they are out of touch with reality and have never experienced life outside of their little bubble. The world is a big and dangerous place, get out and explore and see how the world really is, not just your little make believe "perfect world".

I expect to get flamed on this post, however, that is fine, as this IS America, and I have fought in combat to give you that right. But remember this, I have seen more than the average American, and am pretty thick skinned. And I wont change my beliefs.
NorthernIllinoisPlumber
Thanks for your service!

I think you posted a well thought out and informative reply.
John S.
I have carried a gun most of my adult life. I was with the government and a Police officer. I am now a civilian and I still carry. I believe that having the right to carry is important and does reduce crime. I live in Northern VA and there is a county in MD that is very similar as to demogarpahics. the one difference is gun ownership and crime rates. VA has much lower crime rates. That study has been proven and vetted by actual peer review and the numbers can be seen from the justice department relating to crime.

Now a second part of my arguement is that law enforcement responds not really prevents problems. It is an accident if we see it happening or if we are waiting for it to happen it means it has happened before. I now live in the country. My county is 500 sq miles and has a total of 35 deputies. If you figure three shifts and time off and court time that is about 5 guys and gals a night. Sure there is mutual aid but if they are tied up it might be 30 mins before help comes. The national parks are worse. You can wait two hours for the buffalo to move.

I favor people being trained but having the rights to own and carry. It should be like our drivers license. The new case before the supreme court will further the rights at the state level and some of the cities who are so opposed might see a drop that they can be pleased about but the spin will be we did it not the guns.

I know of a guy who was arrested a few years ago. He was released from prison with his buddy and drove into VA to rob a bank. He was chased into DC by Fairfax county police and when stopped the officer used his shotgun and held them at gunpoint. The passenger was moving his hand and the officer responded, I would sit still or you see your buddy over there, your brains will be all over him. The response was " I told you, I tol you they kill you in Virginia."

That being repeated in the local jails will do more for crime reduction than any program.

ANd yes it is true. You can not check it on snopes but it is true none the less. There were witness and a police report. But the officer went home to see his grandkids to travel.
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