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pianotuna
Hi all,

November 19, 2011 12:50 test begins on 28'5" Class C with dual pane windows For those of you who wish to convert try :Celsius to Fahrenheit

Ambient temperature -18 C

RV temperature was -18 C when picked up but rose to -10 C after 10 kilometers of driving, mostly at highway speeds. The area under the kitchen cabinet was -18 C.

I plugged in two oil filled heaters @ 462 watts each and one radiant heater @ 556 watts for a total of 1480 watts, or the equivalent of 5051 BTU's. The oil filled heaters are in the rear corners of the rear bedroom and the door is open. The radiant heater is in the door way facing the driver's compartment.

13:50
Ambient temperature -18 C, RV temperatures, -7.6 C in the shelf over the dinette, -18 C under kitchen cabinet, -3.6 C rear bedroom

14:50
Ambient temperature -17 C, RV temperatures, -5.5 C in the shelf over the dinette, -15.7 under kitchen cabinet, -1.3 C rear bedroom

15:50
Ambient temperature -17.8 C, RV temperatures, -3.7 C in the shelf over the dinette, -14.6 under kitchen cabinet, 0.1 C rear bedroom

16:50
Ambient temperature -17.8 C, RV temperatures, -2.4 C in the shelf over the dinette, -14.2 under kitchen cabinet, 1 C rear bedroom

17:50
Ambient temperature -18 C, RV temperatures, -2.1 C in the shelf over the dinette, -14 under kitchen cabinet, 1.3 C rear bedroom

18:50
Ambient temperature -18.3 C, RV temperatures, -1.8 C in the shelf over the dinette, -13.8 C under kitchen cabinet, 1.5 C rear bedroom

19:50
Ambient temperature -18 C, RV temperatures, -1.5 C in the shelf over the dinette, -13.7 C under kitchen cabinet, 1.5 C rear bedroom

20:50
Ambient temperature -18.1 C, RV temperatures, -1.8 C in the shelf over the dinette, -13.8 C under kitchen cabinet, 1.5 C rear bedroom

The RV has arrived at steady state. The next part of the test involves switching on a dual fan to blow air into that rather frozen kitchen cabinet. This, by a happy circumstance, also causes a some air to flow through the furnace duct work.

21:50
Ambient temperature -18 C, RV temperatures, -2.2 C in the shelf over the dinette, -7.9 C under kitchen cabinet, `1.1 C rear bedroom

22:50
Ambient temperature -18.6 C, RV temperatures, -2.2 C in the shelf over the dinette, -7.2 C under kitchen cabinet, 0.6 C rear bedroom

23:50
Ambient temperature -18.7 C, RV temperatures, -2.9 C in the shelf over the dinette, -7.4 C under kitchen cabinet, 0.2 C rear bedroom

07:50
Ambient temperature -18.3 C, RV temperatures, -5.4 C in the shelf over the dinette, -9.7 C under kitchen cabinet, -1.9 C rear bedroom

08:50
Ambient temperature -17.2 C, RV temperatures, -5.5 C in the shelf over the dinette, -9.7 C under kitchen cabinet, -2.0 C rear bedroom

09:50
Ambient temperature -16 C, RV temperatures, -5.2 C in the shelf over the dinette, -9.2 C under kitchen cabinet, -1.7 C rear bedroom

On to the next part of testing. I've added 1500 watts of fan based heaters raising the total to just under 3000 watts.

10:50
Ambient temperature -15.1 C, RV temperatures, -2.1 C in the shelf over the dinette, -4.1 C under kitchen cabinet, 3.1 C rear bedroom

11:50
Ambient temperature -14.2 C, RV temperatures, 1.8 C in the shelf over the dinette, -1 C under kitchen cabinet, 6.6 C rear bedroom

12:50
Ambient temperature -13 C, RV temperatures, 4.9 C in the shelf over the dinette, 2.1 C under kitchen cabinet, 10.0 C rear bedroom

13:50
Ambient temperature -12 C, RV temperatures, 7.9 C in the shelf over the dinette, 4.9 C under kitchen cabinet, 12.1 C rear bedroom

14:50
Ambient temperature -12 C, RV temperatures, 9.9 C in the shelf over the dinette, 2.8 C under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off range between -1.1 and 4.7), 14.3 C rear bedroom

15:50
Ambient temperature -12.3 C, RV temperatures, 10.6 C in the shelf over the dinette, 3.8 C under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off), 15.1 C rear bedroom

I've adjusted the under kitchen cabinet thermostat upwards, which was one of the "side issues" for doing this testing.

16:50
Ambient temperature -12.8 C, RV temperatures, 11.1 C in the shelf over the dinette, 2.9 C under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off), 15.6 C rear bedroom

18:50
Ambient temperature -15.8 C, RV temperatures, 11.3 C in the shelf over the dinette, 4.9 C under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off range between 2.7 and 6.3), 15.8 C rear bedroom

I've ended the test and shut down the heaters except for one just to keep a little heat going in the RV.

So far, my thoughts are that without the fan, the kitchen cabinet area essentially never warms up except if the propane furnace, (which happens to "live there") is running. The difference in temperature varies between 10 and 12 degrees C from the temperature at the dinette.

With the fan running that difference is about 1/2 as much or 5 to 6 degrees C.

I am not attempting to keep the kitchen cabinet at the same temperature as the rest of the RV--just trying to keep the water lines from freezing up while not running the propane furnace. Apparently doing so requires about 3000 watts or around 10,000 btu's when there is an ambient temperature of -12 to -15 C.
pianotuna
Hi,

I've "translated it" for the Celsius challenged folks.
November 19, 2011 12:50 test begins on 28'5" Class C with dual pane windows Temperatures converted to F

Ambient temperature -0.4

RV temperature was -0.4 when picked up but rose to 14 after six miles of driving, mostly at highway speeds. The area under the kitchen cabinet was -0.4.

I plugged in two oil filled heaters @ 462 watts each and one radiant heater @ 556 watts for a total of 1480 watts, or the equivalent of 5051 BTU's. The oil filled heaters are in the rear corners of the rear bedroom and the door is open. The radiant heater is in the door way facing the driver's compartment.

13:50
Ambient temperature -0.4, RV temperatures, 18.4 in the shelf over the dinette, -0.4 under kitchen cabinet, 25.5 rear bedroom

14:50
Ambient temperature 1.4, RV temperatures, 22.1 in the shelf over the dinette, 3.7 under kitchen cabinet, 29.6 rear bedroom

15:50
Ambient temperature -0.4, RV temperatures, 25.3 in the shelf over the dinette, 5.7 under kitchen cabinet, 31.8 rear bedroom

16:50
Ambient temperature -0.4, RV temperatures, 27.7 in the shelf over the dinette, 6.4 under kitchen cabinet, 33.8 rear bedroom

17:50
Ambient temperature -0.4, RV temperatures, 28.8 in the shelf over the dinette, 6.8 under kitchen cabinet, 34.3 rear bedroom

18:50
Ambient temperature -0.9, RV temperatures, 28.8, in the shelf over the dinette, 7.2 under kitchen cabinet, 29.3 rear bedroom

19:50
Ambient temperature =0.4, RV temperatures, 29.3 in the shelf over the dinette, 7.3 under kitchen cabinet, 34.7 rear bedroom

20:50
Ambient temperature -0.6, RV temperatures, 28.8 in the shelf over the dinette, 7.2 under kitchen cabinet, 1.5 C rear bedroom

The RV has arrived at steady state. The next part of the test involves switching on a dual fan to blow air into that rather frozen kitchen cabinet. This, by a happy circumstance, also causes a some air to flow through the furnace duct work.

21:50
Ambient temperature -0.4, RV temperatures, 36 in the shelf over the dinette, 17.8 under kitchen cabinet, 34 rear bedroom

22:50
Ambient temperature -1.5, RV temperatures, 36 in the shelf over the dinette, 19 under kitchen cabinet, 33 rear bedroom

23:50
Ambient temperature -1.7, RV temperatures, 26.8 in the shelf over the dinette, 18.7 under kitchen cabinet, 32.4 rear bedroom

07:50
Ambient temperature -0.9, RV temperatures, 22.3 in the shelf over the dinette, 14.5 under kitchen cabinet, 28.6 rear bedroom

08:50
Ambient temperature 1, RV temperatures, 22.1 in the shelf over the dinette, 14.5 under kitchen cabinet, 28.4 rear bedroom

09:50
Ambient temperature 3.2, RV temperatures, 22.6 in the shelf over the dinette, 15.4 under kitchen cabinet, 29 rear bedroom

On to the next part of testing. I've added 1500 watts of fan based heaters raising the total to just under 3000 watts.

10:50
Ambient temperature 4.8, RV temperatures, 28.2 in the shelf over the dinette, 24.6 under kitchen cabinet, 37.6 rear bedroom

11:50
Ambient temperature 6.4, RV temperatures, 35.2 in the shelf over the dinette, 30.2 under kitchen cabinet, 43.9 rear bedroom

12:50
Ambient temperature 8.6, RV temperatures, 40.8 in the shelf over the dinette, 35.8 C under kitchen cabinet, 50 rear bedroom

13:50
Ambient temperature 10.4, RV temperatures, 46.2 in the shelf over the dinette, 40.8 under kitchen cabinet, 54 rear bedroom

14:50
Ambient temperature 10.4, RV temperatures, 50.8 in the shelf over the dinette, 37 under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off range between 30 and 40.5), 57.7 C rear bedroom

15:50
Ambient temperature 9.9, RV temperatures, 51 in the shelf over the dinette, 38.8 under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off), 59.2 rear bedroom

I've adjusted the under kitchen cabinet thermostat upwards, which was one of the "side issues" for doing this testing.

16:50
Ambient temperature 9, RV temperatures, 52 in the shelf over the dinette, 37.2 under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off), 60 rear bedroom

18:50
Ambient temperature 3.5, RV temperatures, 52.3 in the shelf over the dinette, 4.0.8 under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off range between 36.9 and 43.4), 60.4 rear bedroom

I've ended the test and shut down the heaters except for one just to keep a little heat going in the RV.

So far, my thoughts are that without the fan, the kitchen cabinet area essentially never warms up except if the propane furnace, (which happens to "live there") is running. The difference in temperature varies between 18 and 21.6 degrees lower than from the temperature at the dinette.

With the fan running that difference is about 1/2 as much or 9 to 11 degrees lower.

I am not attempting to keep the kitchen cabinet at the same temperature as the rest of the RV--just trying to keep the water lines from freezing up while not running the propane furnace. Apparently doing so requires about 3000 watts or around 10,000 btu's when there is an ambient temperature of 10.4 to 5.
Wink
QUOTE(pianotuna @ Nov 21 2011, 12:57 PM) *

Hi,

I've "translated it" for the Celsius challenged folks.
November 19, 2011 12:50 test begins on 28'5" Class C with dual pane windows Temperatures converted to F

Ambient temperature -0.4

RV temperature was -0.4 when picked up but rose to 14 after six miles of driving, mostly at highway speeds. The area under the kitchen cabinet was -0.4.

I plugged in two oil filled heaters @ 462 watts each and one radiant heater @ 556 watts for a total of 1480 watts, or the equivalent of 5051 BTU's. The oil filled heaters are in the rear corners of the rear bedroom and the door is open. The radiant heater is in the door way facing the driver's compartment.

13:50
Ambient temperature -0.4, RV temperatures, 18.4 in the shelf over the dinette, -0.4 under kitchen cabinet, 25.5 rear bedroom

14:50
Ambient temperature 1.4, RV temperatures, 22.1 in the shelf over the dinette, 3.7 under kitchen cabinet, 29.6 rear bedroom

15:50
Ambient temperature -0.4, RV temperatures, 25.3 in the shelf over the dinette, 5.7 under kitchen cabinet, 31.8 rear bedroom

16:50
Ambient temperature -0.4, RV temperatures, 27.7 in the shelf over the dinette, 6.4 under kitchen cabinet, 33.8 rear bedroom

17:50
Ambient temperature -0.4, RV temperatures, 28.8 in the shelf over the dinette, 6.8 under kitchen cabinet, 34.3 rear bedroom

18:50
Ambient temperature -0.9, RV temperatures, 28.8, in the shelf over the dinette, 7.2 under kitchen cabinet, 29.3 rear bedroom

19:50
Ambient temperature =0.4, RV temperatures, 29.3 in the shelf over the dinette, 7.3 under kitchen cabinet, 34.7 rear bedroom

20:50
Ambient temperature -0.6, RV temperatures, 28.8 in the shelf over the dinette, 7.2 under kitchen cabinet, 1.5 C rear bedroom

The RV has arrived at steady state. The next part of the test involves switching on a dual fan to blow air into that rather frozen kitchen cabinet. This, by a happy circumstance, also causes a some air to flow through the furnace duct work.

21:50
Ambient temperature -0.4, RV temperatures, 36 in the shelf over the dinette, 17.8 under kitchen cabinet, 34 rear bedroom

22:50
Ambient temperature -1.5, RV temperatures, 36 in the shelf over the dinette, 19 under kitchen cabinet, 33 rear bedroom

23:50
Ambient temperature -1.7, RV temperatures, 26.8 in the shelf over the dinette, 18.7 under kitchen cabinet, 32.4 rear bedroom

07:50
Ambient temperature -0.9, RV temperatures, 22.3 in the shelf over the dinette, 14.5 under kitchen cabinet, 28.6 rear bedroom

08:50
Ambient temperature 1, RV temperatures, 22.1 in the shelf over the dinette, 14.5 under kitchen cabinet, 28.4 rear bedroom

09:50
Ambient temperature 3.2, RV temperatures, 22.6 in the shelf over the dinette, 15.4 under kitchen cabinet, 29 rear bedroom

On to the next part of testing. I've added 1500 watts of fan based heaters raising the total to just under 3000 watts.

10:50
Ambient temperature 4.8, RV temperatures, 28.2 in the shelf over the dinette, 24.6 under kitchen cabinet, 37.6 rear bedroom

11:50
Ambient temperature 6.4, RV temperatures, 35.2 in the shelf over the dinette, 30.2 under kitchen cabinet, 43.9 rear bedroom

12:50
Ambient temperature 8.6, RV temperatures, 40.8 in the shelf over the dinette, 35.8 C under kitchen cabinet, 50 rear bedroom

13:50
Ambient temperature 10.4, RV temperatures, 46.2 in the shelf over the dinette, 40.8 under kitchen cabinet, 54 rear bedroom

14:50
Ambient temperature 10.4, RV temperatures, 50.8 in the shelf over the dinette, 37 under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off range between 30 and 40.5), 57.7 C rear bedroom

15:50
Ambient temperature 9.9, RV temperatures, 51 in the shelf over the dinette, 38.8 under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off), 59.2 rear bedroom

I've adjusted the under kitchen cabinet thermostat upwards, which was one of the "side issues" for doing this testing.

16:50
Ambient temperature 9, RV temperatures, 52 in the shelf over the dinette, 37.2 under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off), 60 rear bedroom

18:50
Ambient temperature 3.5, RV temperatures, 52.3 in the shelf over the dinette, 4.0.8 under kitchen cabinet (fan cycled to off range between 36.9 and 43.4), 60.4 rear bedroom

I've ended the test and shut down the heaters except for one just to keep a little heat going in the RV.

So far, my thoughts are that without the fan, the kitchen cabinet area essentially never warms up except if the propane furnace, (which happens to "live there") is running. The difference in temperature varies between 18 and 21.6 degrees lower than from the temperature at the dinette.

With the fan running that difference is about 1/2 as much or 9 to 11 degrees lower.

I am not attempting to keep the kitchen cabinet at the same temperature as the rest of the RV--just trying to keep the water lines from freezing up while not running the propane furnace. Apparently doing so requires about 3000 watts or around 10,000 btu's when there is an ambient temperature of 10.4 to 5.


Burr it sounds like you need to come down to Florida and drop some money for us poor bug ate locals. rolleyes.gif
HappiestCamper
Don, were you plugged into shore popwer or were you running solar and batteries?
pianotuna
Hi,

Shore power, specifically two 15 amp circuits. I wish I had that much solar LOL but I'd have to have "wings" that folded out with panels on them.
vincee
so the moral of the whole experiment is MOVE to where the sun shines and it stays above freezing. That is of course if you are retired and full timing. Interesting process though I must say.
Kirk
If it gets really cold up there you may have frozen water lines even with the heat in the RV. I think that I would winterize it.
Jerry S.
I had assumed that since this test began in a temperature of 0F, that the RV had already been winterized. Since the vehicle had apparently been subjected to hours of subfreezing (<32F) temperatures, any water in the tanks and/or plumbing system would have been frozen and the system could have easily been damaged if it was not already winterized. Don can correct me if I am wrong.
pianotuna
Hi Jerry,

Yes, the test was performed with lines that were protected and then the antifreeze was blown out.

I do use my RV in all temperatures. The problem I was trying to correct is that the heater in my Class C is pretty good at warming the rear of the RV. But the area under the cabinets would dip down below freezing, because the heat from the engine would prevent the furnace from cycling. That led to fresh water freeze ups even when the area above the dinette was at 20 C (68 F). Opening the doors on the cabinets proved fruitless, so I decided to be proactive and add the dual fans.
SteveE
Thanks for posting the results of your experiment. As I too like to winter camp (even with single pane windows, my trailer sure beats a tent or snow cave smile.gif ) it is nice to learn from what other folks are doing.

Since you have line voltage available, why not just put a little electric heater (or heat tape) right where you need the heat?


QUOTE(pianotuna @ Nov 24 2011, 12:07 AM) *

Hi Jerry,

Yes, the test was performed with lines that were protected and then the antifreeze was blown out.

I do use my RV in all temperatures. The problem I was trying to correct is that the heater in my Class C is pretty good at warming the rear of the RV. But the area under the cabinets would dip down below freezing, because the heat from the engine would prevent the furnace from cycling. That led to fresh water freeze ups even when the area above the dinette was at 20 C (68 F). Opening the doors on the cabinets proved fruitless, so I decided to be proactive and add the dual fans.

pianotuna
Hi Steve,

I first tried with a 1500 watt heater. It was not enough to prevent freezing.

QUOTE(SteveE @ Nov 25 2011, 10:44 AM) *

Thanks for posting the results of your experiment. As I too like to winter camp (even with single pane windows, my trailer sure beats a tent or snow cave smile.gif ) it is nice to learn from what other folks are doing.

Since you have line voltage available, why not just put a little electric heater (or heat tape) right where you need the heat?

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